Chambers Bay conditions update

[Garland Bayley]

Reading this thread several points come to mind here:

Links golf = course built on the link between the sea and the fertile ground - thus sand dunes on sandy soil. Fine grasses, wind is not a necessary aspect per definition but due to their locations most links can be windy, even extremely windy but of course they can have windless days which may be few and far between.

Genuine True Links = don't kid yourselves here there are quite a few completely manufactured links courses that meet the above criteria. Think Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns, even Castle Course. The latter to me is perhaps more similar to Chamber's Bay of the 3. Especially considering some of the slopes etc.

Following the natural contours of the land:  GJ, suggested this course followed the natural contours of the land as most links courses do. This is certainly not the case with Chamber's they moved 1.4 million cubic yards of sand and dirt. Now I'm not a mathematician but that's a fair bit, in fact, it's as much as I've ever heard moved in the creation of a course. Whistling Straits moved as a matter of comparison 600,000 cubic yards.

So there is absolutely nothing natural about it. However, that doesn't matter in the end nor does it detract from the fact that they created a course that plays like a links and has fine grasses. It's as close to a links experience as you will get in the US without going to Bandon and it does play very similar indeed.

Links courses in the US: Actually Oregon already has 5 authentic links courses that I know of and have visited. Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Old Mac, Astoria Country Club and Gearhardt links. These arguably all meet the criteria.

Personally, I'm super excited about Chamber's showcasing it's links (like) course and love the fact that it's fast, firm and baked out. This makes up for the lack of wind they will have. I love the looks of it and I love the fact that it's a US Open that presents other challenges than 6 inch rough and narrow fairways. There will be tons of complaints but not from the guys in the Top 10.

Let the games begin!

This is the first time I have ever heard that the Castle Course is a links. Where is the sand at that mud pit?


You have to know why the earth was moved at Chambers and what was done with it before you draw ill-considered conclusions. The place was a sand and gravel mine. Almost all the "top soil" was removed and sifted to remove the gravel before being returned to the original site. The landscape was a mine. Therefore, you choice of natural contours of the land is inappropriate. If I recall correctly, I wrote "original" contours.


In any case, the Castle Course is not the least bit like Chambers Bay in soil composition or method of building.

[David Davis]

Garland,


I stand corrected. Adam was there during the construction phase. He says only the greens and surrounds are based on sand and the fairways are dirt. I was there in March and spoke to the staff about it due to the fact that there were some drainage spots I was curious about. The course otherwise was playing as firm as most the links courses on the trip. In any case that doesn't change the point of what I wrote. You only picked out the part you didn't like. Next time I will make sure to bring my pocket shovel to verify staff claims of sand capping.


As I said it's links like officially - completely manufactured links-like experience. Just like Chamber's Bay. However, some true links courses are completely manufactured. That was the point, also the definition of links courses which had been incorrectly stated.


Clearly the greens and surrounds are indeed similar given they are sand based. Fairways are not similar. Still links-like course. 

[Anthony Butler]

Personally, I'm super excited about Chamber's showcasing it's links (like) course and love the fact that it's fast, firm and baked out.

Let the games begin!

Let the games begin.. Indeed.. To that point, who said the basketball season is over?

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/06/this-video-of-us-open-competit.html?mbid=social_facebook

[Matt Frey, PGA]

The GCSAA profiled the director of agronomy at Chambers Bay, Eric Johnson: http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/322024

[Marc Haring]

The GCSAA profiled the director of agronomy at Chambers Bay, Eric Johnson: http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/322024

Eric gets on this site doesn't he?

[Adam Clayman]

Actually Richard Choi on his field report thread say's they've put down a ton of water recently so I guess they're thinking we better try and save these greens quickly and maybe it was not too late. As you know, when poa goes it goes! He also mentioned that they do have some bent in the mix so that will help.

It should take about 3 days for the fescue to turn greener, if they did in fact put down a ton.

I can think of no better psychological tests than playing on a green firm surface, or similarly, on a brown soft one. Both mess with the mind identifying and rewarding the more aware golfer.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere in this or another thread, but how about a moment's pause in recognition of the management's determination to stick with fescue through the (inevitable) grumblings and sky-is-fallings? That to me is a story worth telling and behavior worth praising.

Yes / no maybe?

[Marc Haring]

Are we sure the greens are OK?

[Richard Choi]

Marc, that area looked fine about a month ago, but it has been a chronic problem area for the first hole as most traffic exit using that area. Looks like they should have roped that area off leading up to US Open longer.

[Carl Nichols]

Richard--
Are the greens at all bumpy?  I think the most likely criticism of Chambers will not be the firmness/alleged unfairness, but that the greens aren't perfectly smooth.  I can see the possibility of slow-mo, high-def feed of various putts that are less smooth than the pros are accustomed to.

[Mike Hendren]

Will it be advantagious for players to flight their balls into the slopes to control distance?    Seems like the slopes are most useful as brakes rather than turbo boosts. 
 
Will the right-hander who fades the ball have an advantage?

[Alex Miller]

Even if you think Chambers' conditioning is less than ideal, how can you not look forward to seeing these guys play on greens that aren't marble smooth?! God forbid these pros play something that resembles conditioning 99% of golfers ENJOY week to week.

[Carl Nichols]

Even if you think Chambers' conditioning is less than ideal, how can you not look forward to seeing these guys play on greens that aren't marble smooth?! God forbid these pros play something that resembles conditioning 99% of golfers ENJOY week to week.

I'm with you.  But that doesn't mean the pros won't complain and the commentators won't talk about it like it's a big deal.

[Brent Hutto]

No, I would not look forward to seeing a US Open played on shitty greens.

You guys are amazing.


P.S. Honestly, I think if Mike Davis announced each group was going to have a volunteer assigned to poke the players with a sharp stick during their backswing people around here would say "It'll be nice to see this guys have to deal with pokes from a sharp stick for once".

[William_G]

No, I would not look forward to seeing a US Open played on shitty greens.

Why are you equating the conditioning with the quality of the greens?

[Jon Wiggett]

Carl, that was my first thought. Just how smooth are they putting? I think it is a shame that many get so hung up on the visual characteristic over the playing quality.

If Richard is right then it would seem traffic management is the problem in this case. I am sure they will learn from this and be able to find a solution.

Jon

[Brent Hutto]

...

[Brent Hutto]

I have no idea how the greens at Chambers Bay are rolling. I'm not equipped for judging that from a photo (although I must say that's a pretty scary looking photo to a lay person).


I was responding to the following hypothetical.

how can you not look forward to seeing these guys play on greens that aren't marble smooth?!

[Richard Choi]

The greens are running smooth. I stood next to the greens on 18th and 17th and they rolled great, with no hops discernible to the naked eyes. I have not heard players complaining about the greens other than Schwartzel.

[Alex Miller]

I have no idea how the greens at Chambers Bay are rolling. I'm not equipped for judging that from a photo (although I must say that's a pretty scary looking photo to a lay person).


I was responding to the following hypothetical.

how can you not look forward to seeing these guys play on greens that aren't marble smooth?!

And the full quote

Even if you think Chambers' conditioning is less than ideal, how can you not look forward to seeing these guys play on greens that aren't marble smooth?! God forbid these pros play something that resembles conditioning 99% of golfers ENJOY week to week.

It's a hypothetical on the condition that you can discern from the photo that playing conditions are compromised. And to be clear, I can't tell from that photo either.

[Richard Choi]

P.S. Schwartzel was complaining that these greens were not rolling like perfectly manicured greens at Muirfield.

If you are expecting these greens to roll like they do at the Memorial Tournament, I am afraid you will be severely disappointed.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

...

As I said it's links like officially - completely manufactured links-like experience. Just like Chamber's Bay. However, some true links courses are completely manufactured. That was the point, also the definition of links courses which had been incorrectly stated.


Clearly the greens and surrounds are indeed similar given they are sand based. Fairways are not similar. Still links-like course.

What definition of links courses had been incorrectly stated?  What is your definition of links courses? "course built on the link between the sea and the fertile ground - thus sand dunes on sandy soil. Fine grasses, wind is not a necessary aspect per definition but due to their locations most links can be windy?" Ambiguous whether you mean "fine grasses" to be included or not. Does your statement mean that wind is necessary by virtue of locations giving windy environs?

It would be interesting to a clear definition form you since you include Astoria and Gearhardt. You are certainly the first person that I know of that has included both of those.


The book True Links excludes Astoria, Gearhardt, and the Castle Course as true links. I excludes Chambers Bays as being a true links, only because it is too far from the ocean. The most important factor that being so far from the ocean causes is the lack of regular ocean breezes. Otherwise it is the sandy connection from the sea (Puget Sound) to the farmable soils.

[William_G]

conditioning conditioning conditioning

somehow how I always think of conditioning LAST when I think of golf, I must be crazy

[Garland Bayley]

conditioning conditioning conditioning

somehow how I always think of conditioning LAST when I think of golf, I must be crazy

If your paycheck depends on conditioning so that your talent has its best chance to show through and your pay increase, then
conditioning, conditioning, conditioning.


If your game is for fun then perhaps it is
location, location, location
e.g.
linksland, linksland, linksland
or
Bandon, Bandon, Bandon


No you are not crazy.

[David Davis]

Garland,


I wrote my definition already in the post. I would certainly not call Chamber's Bay or the Castle Course true links. I call them links like. But not for the same reason you do.


Gearhart and Astoria I would certainly call true links courses. In fact aren't both of them dating back to the late 19th century. I've played them both and also all the top links course in the UK and Ireland now. Which means nothing of course but I can assure you that you can't really differentiate them from other true links in terms of the fact that were created in the dunes on sand based soil that links the sea/ocean and fertile ground. The turf is of fine based grasses and they certainly play firm and fast as a result of this.


More links you certainly can't get. I have no idea why Mr. Pepper omitted them. However, I just wrote him an email so will inform you of his answer to your point should he be kind enough to reply.


Chambers Bay does not reside on links land. There are no dunes in the area that I'm aware of. It lies in what was formerly an enormous gaping hole. That does nothing to take away from it of course. I personally really like playing there and think it's an awesome addition to golf in the PNW.