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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2015, 05:58:06 PM »
Did greens roll smooth, 100 years ago? 50 years ago?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brent Hutto

Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #151 on: June 17, 2015, 06:03:17 PM »
conditioning conditioning conditioning

somehow how I always think of conditioning LAST when I think of golf, I must be crazy


No you'll fit in perfectly with the group-think here.


It's always funny when the Treehouse goes on about "firm and fast, firm and fast, firm and fast" constantly but then maintains that "conditioning" doesn't matter. Firm and fast IS a "condition" that must be maintained.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #152 on: June 17, 2015, 06:05:38 PM »
David,


I have played Astoria, and I can't see it being called a links, because the turf does not play like links turf at Bandon for instance. If that were corrected and the trees lining many of the holes, then I could see calling it a links.


I have only looked at Gearhart, but again lining the holes with trees is certainly anti-links. The turf looked certainly more links like than Astoria, but I have no experience with it.


Was not what I reproduced in my last post your links definition? I tried to point out that I thought your definition was unclear. The most unclear part was the fine grasses played in your definition.


If it were discovered that there was considerable gravel under Royal Porthcawl that could be mined for road building, etc., would removing the sand, mining the gravel, and then replacing the sand disqualify the Royal Porthcawl site from being a links, as it would more resemble a pit then?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #153 on: June 17, 2015, 06:15:38 PM »


I did not give a stuff about the 'conditioning' when playing for a living I was however interested in the playing quality.

Jon

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #154 on: June 17, 2015, 06:22:04 PM »
Look, as I said before, these greens are in better condition and roll better than most of the greens at Bandon Dunes (other than the greens at Trails). If you do not like these greens and how they roll, you will HATE Bandon Dunes.


If you ever played Bandon Dunes, these greens are rolling like how greens at Bandon will roll after being double cut and rolled.


I believe it is more than sufficient for US Open.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #155 on: June 17, 2015, 06:35:52 PM »
Did greens roll smooth, 100 years ago? 50 years ago?
No, but they do now and anything less is totally crap. The pro's wont care about colour, they wont care about speed as long as each green is the same. They will care when the ball bobbles and kicks. Some will moan about some balls stopping quickly on the green and other shots kick on. Fescue is unsuitable for tournament golf in my opinion, its recovery rate is shocking so the green design must be heavily open at the areas where the next tee area is, incorporating that type of feature  into the green design you start to neglect quite basic features that affect the way a green can be set up.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #156 on: June 17, 2015, 07:39:49 PM »
The GCSAA profiled the director of agronomy at Chambers Bay, Eric Johnson: http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/322024

Eric gets on this site doesn't he?

He does

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #157 on: June 17, 2015, 09:31:03 PM »
conditioning conditioning conditioning

somehow how I always think of conditioning LAST when I think of golf, I must be crazy


No you'll fit in perfectly with the group-think here.


It's always funny when the Treehouse goes on about "firm and fast, firm and fast, firm and fast" constantly but then maintains that "conditioning" doesn't matter. Firm and fast IS a "condition" that must be maintained.
brent

I assure you that I do fit in here

Yet the position of maintenance and conditioning is not equated with anything other than those looking  for a meal ticket day in and day out

Golf is meant to be an adventure just like life.

US Opens have broken out of the box thankfully, it's not a bowling tournament :)

Go get it!

Great day tomorrow :)


It's all about the golf!

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #158 on: June 18, 2015, 02:46:47 AM »
Did greens roll smooth, 100 years ago? 50 years ago?
No, but they do now and anything less is totally crap. The pro's wont care about colour, they wont care about speed as long as each green is the same. They will care when the ball bobbles and kicks. Some will moan about some balls stopping quickly on the green and other shots kick on. Fescue is unsuitable for tournament golf in my opinion, its recovery rate is shocking so the green design must be heavily open at the areas where the next tee area is, incorporating that type of feature  into the green design you start to neglect quite basic features that affect the way a green can be set up.


I do think that fescue can work extremely well for tournament golf but only in very specific situations and those situations are on linksland certainly in the UK maybe parts of Northern Europe. We all know of amazing fescue dominant greens on a links course that have indestructible wear characteristics but go a couple of miles inland and the grass is unsustainable. Wish I knew why for sure because i've maintained inland greens in the same way they're maintained on a links course but the fescue just won't hold up.


I'm thinking that CB and Bandon and the like just does not have those essential conditions.


Expect Eric is busy right now but be good to get his thoughts. Oh and good luck Eric. Hope it all goes really well for you. 

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #159 on: June 18, 2015, 03:32:09 AM »
Eric, have a great week. Looks amazing on the telly.
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David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #160 on: June 18, 2015, 09:24:21 AM »
David,


I have played Astoria, and I can't see it being called a links, because the turf does not play like links turf at Bandon for instance. If that were corrected and the trees lining many of the holes, then I could see calling it a links.


I have only looked at Gearhart, but again lining the holes with trees is certainly anti-links. The turf looked certainly more links like than Astoria, but I have no experience with it.


Was not what I reproduced in my last post your links definition? I tried to point out that I thought your definition was unclear. The most unclear part was the fine grasses played in your definition.


If it were discovered that there was considerable gravel under Royal Porthcawl that could be mined for road building, etc., would removing the sand, mining the gravel, and then replacing the sand disqualify the Royal Porthcawl site from being a links, as it would more resemble a pit then?


GB,


I understand your point, from a purist point of view perhaps one would argue that if a links was created on pure undeveloped links land then yes however in the case that Royal Porthcawl, a course I love by the way, had been placed in a rock quarry fitting your definition a purist might call it a manufactured links like course. Semantics I suppose. However, my personal opinion after having been to Chambers several times was that the land is not by nature links land. Hence the millions of cubic meters of earth/sand that had to be trucked in and moved.


The entire area for the most part consists of cliffs I suppose but not even on a sea, there are no dunes there either. Maybe more like Castle Stuart and I just realized that I wrote Castle Course when in fact I meant to write Castle Stuart in my original response with regards to the course built in an area that more reminded me of Chambers Bay.


It could very well be that there isn't an exact right answer even though in my mind and based on my experience there is.


I have also just received a very nice reply from Mr. Pepper which goes far to answering your question and my hypothesis from above.


I will send this to you by personal message so you can read it in it's entirety however, the short of it is that they were not aware of these courses, Astoria and Gearhart and had never visited them so they were not included as possible links courses in their book. An interesting an honest response which I appreciate.


He went on to say that he looked at photos and noticed they seem quite tree lined which put questions in his mind and also stated that there would not, unfortunately be a 2nd edition in the future.


You had also mentioned the tree aspect of certain links courses or lack of trees. It's true that in most situations links land is void of trees/in the dunes. However, the fact that trees exist or were later planted does not change the land on which the course is made to something else.


I can give you several examples of true links courses that have or run into pine forests. Formby being one, my home club, Noordwijkse being the other. In the case of the latter example, the land was there for ever. The trees were not and were planted between WW1 and WW2.


Now whether they should be there is an entirely different problem.


 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 10:22:08 AM by David Davis »
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Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #161 on: June 18, 2015, 11:01:33 AM »
Since everyone is rushing to judgement, I'm rushing to say everything has been overblown after watching Phil spin a wedge to 10 feet on #2 this morning.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #162 on: June 18, 2015, 11:31:42 AM »
David,


Formby is of course my example of links running into forests when discussing the matter with Craig.


Bandon is of course links on the top of cliffs by the sea.


There is a sandy link between sea and more fertile land that can easily be seen on the road from I-5 to Steilacoom just south of Chambers Bay. It too is forested.


Let's just say my definition of links is more pure than yours.


What about Sandpines? It falls into the Astoria class for me.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #163 on: June 18, 2015, 12:15:18 PM »
The course is relatively receptive right now. I expect it will firm up as the day warms up. If you are going to go low, right now is the time to do it.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #164 on: June 18, 2015, 12:20:01 PM »
I am following Phil on-line and have not see a really nasty pin position yet. #2 is in a very easy spot. #6 is accessible.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #165 on: June 18, 2015, 01:25:57 PM »
#10 pin is VERY easy pin if you lay up short with your drive. I am surprised they are all trying to mash it. If you leave yourself about 150-160 yards (preferably from the right side of the fairway) and hit a little knock down shot to the left, the ball will feed naturally to the pin.


Bubba just learned how cruel this hole can be if you miss your high approach by even by just a little.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #166 on: June 18, 2015, 01:35:38 PM »
As easy as it has seemed this morning, at the moment, there are only 12 players under par.

Edit: Make that 11.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 01:37:42 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #167 on: June 18, 2015, 01:36:58 PM »
I was just looking at some photos of Royal Dornoch, specifically that wonderful yellow bank of gorse on the severe slope to the left of holes 3-6 and below the 7th.

Does gorse like this grow in the PNW?


If so the upper levels of C-Bay might perhaps look a bit more visually attractive if the high bank at the top of the course were gorse covered and maybe also a few more areas where neither golf balls or spectators are likely to go.

Just a thought.

Enjoying the TV coverage. Very nice to see such a variety of shots being played, especially ones being played to feed in to targets.

Atb

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #168 on: June 18, 2015, 01:36:58 PM »
Love the way it's playing early on!

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #169 on: June 18, 2015, 01:37:51 PM »
This course will play very differently this afternoon.


I will say, I have yet to see a really difficult pin position.


The Thu morning/ Fri afternoon groups have a huge advantage as the forecast is for a bit of rain tonight. It may keep the course a bit more receptive tomorrow afternoon.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #170 on: June 18, 2015, 02:16:56 PM »
Even though Reed is -4 through 8, there are now ONLY 8 players under par.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:22:07 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #171 on: June 18, 2015, 03:05:19 PM »
13 now!!!!

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #172 on: June 18, 2015, 03:16:18 PM »
I was just looking at some photos of Royal Dornoch, specifically that wonderful yellow bank of gorse on the severe slope to the left of holes 3-6 and below the 7th.

Does gorse like this grow in the PNW?


If so the upper levels of C-Bay might perhaps look a bit more visually attractive if the high bank at the top of the course were gorse covered and maybe also a few more areas where neither golf balls or spectators are likely to go.

Just a thought.

Enjoying the TV coverage. Very nice to see such a variety of shots being played, especially ones being played to feed in to targets.

Atb


Gorse is a HUGEOUSLY invasive weed in that part of the world. Ask Tom Doak about the Pacific Dunes fire!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #173 on: June 18, 2015, 04:11:50 PM »
I was just looking at some photos of Royal Dornoch, specifically that wonderful yellow bank of gorse on the severe slope to the left of holes 3-6 and below the 7th.

Does gorse like this grow in the PNW?
I'm guessing you've never been to Bandon ;)

If so the upper levels of C-Bay might perhaps look a bit more visually attractive if the high bank at the top of the course were gorse covered and maybe also a few more areas where neither golf balls or spectators are likely to go.

Just a thought.

Enjoying the TV coverage. Very nice to see such a variety of shots being played, especially ones being played to feed in to targets.

Atb

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay conditions update
« Reply #174 on: June 18, 2015, 08:53:22 PM »
Just wondering what the treehouse is drinking with their plates of crow.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....