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Terry Lavin

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2015, 09:32:10 PM »
Sure, it would be great to see more women (hint to BCowanMich: this is the plural form of woman), but it ain't gonna happen quick enough to make a difference. Any change, while welcome, would be incremental (not mental like BCMi), so it can't be counted on.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

BCowan

Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2015, 09:53:43 PM »
Sure, it would be great to see more women (hint to BCowanMich: this is the plural form of woman), but it ain't gonna happen quick enough to make a difference. Any change, while welcome, would be incremental (not mental like BCMi), so it can't be counted on.

It would be great to see more gentlemen and ladies on the golf course as well as GCA.  Instead we have pompous assholes that clutter threads (insert Smails).  Congrats Smails its been 48 hours since your last name drop!  Change will come incremental from the bottom up not from (judicial activism), so hope may come but it will probably fall on deaf ears. 

Carl Johnson

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2015, 10:22:16 PM »
Everybody wants more women to play golf... Until they're in the group in front of them.   NIFOMF!

Get women to play fast first.  Then there can be a serious discussion about them playing more.

Here's the truth:  if women's' participation triples, men's participation will be cut in half.  And golf will be worse off.  A lot worse.  

They need to play fast.  They simply don't.  Cue the one-off anecdotal refutations in three, two, one... Go!

Well, where's the data on your side?  At my club we have women who play, and men who play.  Many more men than women.  But, and this is my anecdotal experience, the women as a whole play faster than the men as a whole.  I have no data.  Just my experience.  So, I cannot say that women play faster than men, or vice versa.  Just my experience at my club.  I will also say that (as a man), I've been held up a lot more by men than women.  A good question would be, "But, in proportion to all golfers on the course?"  I can't answer that.  Also, I cannot answer that question with respect to gay (either way, of which I think we have both) golfers or transsexuals/transgenders (however defined).  By the way, my mens' three ball played in 3:15 today.  There was a two ball women's group that teed off about 20 min. before we did.  We were not held up.  Just anecdotal.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 10:32:28 PM by Carl Johnson »

Eric Strulowitz

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2015, 10:27:45 PM »
Everybody wants more women to play golf... Until they're in the group in front of them.   NIFOMF!

Get women to play fast first.  Then there can be a serious discussion about them playing more.

Here's the truth:  if women's' participation triples, men's participation will be cut in half.  And golf will be worse off.  A lot worse.  

They need to play fast.  They simply don't.  Cue the one-off anecdotal refutations in three, two, one... Go!


A friend invited me to play with his men's group at a local club this am.  The stinking round was exactly 5 hours. I told my friend not to invite me again.

These  guys  were beyond slow.  Slow play is not a woman's problem, it is a golf problem.  

These imbeciles even with GPS were  still looking for yardage markers.  Why pay for these stupid devices and not trust them!  Analyzing ad nauseum every angle on the greens

When you are factoring in the drive to the course, time to hit a few on the range and putt a few, and then a long round, and then the drive home,  it can come to over 6 hours.  Any wonder the game is in decline?


« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 11:18:25 AM by Eric Strulowitz »

Carl Johnson

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2015, 10:34:27 PM »
As I said, cue the anecdotes.  My apologies.  I forgot to say "cue the faux-equivalency rationalizations", too.  How silly of me.

Don't get it.  What do you mean? Sorry -- not sharp tonight.

Andrew Buck

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2015, 09:41:55 AM »
It's hard to post thoughts in this thread without them being skewed by the anecdotal evidence in your own life.

That said, I think Jud T has it partially right with men who like to golf and want to play more encouraging family participation in the game, as opposed to looking at the game as an escape from that side of their life.  However, even if that path is taken, there are many women, like my wife, who are not opposed to golf, but simply aren't going to allocate a lot of time toward it.  She enjoys coming out as a family on a late afternoon a couple times a year and she hits the ball fairly well, but she'd much rather be doing yoga, or running or shopping than spending much time and treasure on golf.  Our club is very easy to play for women, and it's rare that it's crowded enough for Men to get upset at women, but in some ways, it's because she's competitive, that golf frustrates her too much to spend a lot of time at it.

In regards to the following:

"3.  I firmly believe that we are becoming increasingly matriarchal.   Everywhere you look, women are getting advanced degrees and assuming management positions.  They are going to night school or studying online , working long hours, and yet still expected to be the primary caregiver at home.  Men have not picked up the slack at home with two wage earners, this leaves many women tired and depressed, and heart disease was once not a major killer of women compared to men, it is now a major killer.  There  are a lot of supermoms out there, it takes its toll, so golf is a low low priority."

I don't disagree with these comments at all.  As for the impact of the working mother on golf in affluent circles, I've witnessed that it is the men who's spouses work that have more freedom than those who stay home to play golf on weekends.  I'm not suggesting this is "right", and may be a result of *some* working mothers feeling the need to make up time at home from being away.  That said, anecdotally, I feel there is often a sense of shared responsibility of family obligations and the desire to give each spouse a needed break when both parents work, that sometimes isn't there when one spouse stays home.  In most affluent families today, the stay at home spouse was once reasonably successful in the workforce, and therefore asking the spouse to stay at home for  4 - 6 hours on the weekend continuing their "everyday" routine, feels like asking them to put in overtime.  
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 09:45:19 AM by Andrew Buck »

Brent Hutto

Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2015, 10:57:03 AM »
To paraphrase the old George Carlin line about other drivers (the ones driving slower than me are idiots, the ones driving faster are maniacs) I guess anyone with less money than me is a loser I don't want to play golf with and anyone with more than me is an entitled dick.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2015, 11:01:20 AM »
Now where I play women aren't slow at all. The problem lies in that they refuse to play through a group of men under any circumstances.  The up tees are so short that one expert woman in the group drives up to the green on most holes and sits 20 yds out all pissy while we putt out.  Last time this happened we just quit after six holes and went back to the first tee and started over. The end result is that it doesn't matter how fast or slow women play, they are always gonna be a finger in the dike slowing the flow of play.

Adam Clayman

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2015, 11:07:59 AM »
Considering they play a shorter course, Mr. Johnson is right. err... ummm. I mean Mr. Irons.

I'm not sure who is telling the one off anecdotes. Inconsiderate self absorbed golfers are apparently hermaphroditic.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2015, 11:16:39 AM »
Geeze - some wild comments here....   Which other sports would you prevent women from playing?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2015, 11:36:15 AM »
My wife and I do a ton of cycling together. Her fitness level is eons past mine but without me guiding our traffic choices she would be long gone. The safest path is always the most aggressive path. Whenever a motorist senses weekness they push you off the road. It all comes back to the asshole factor. Women are too kind for their own good. Put em in a controlled environment on a stationary piece of equipment where everyone finishes and starts in the same place and you got yourself a happy gal.

Kyle Harris

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2015, 11:40:31 AM »
Pretty myopic some of these generalizations.

Woman golfers are often more competitive (in the classic sense of playing the games correctly, and fairly) and far more well-behaved than any male counterpart day-in and day-out.

My career is filled with anecdotal evidence supporting the health of the women's game directly correlating to the health of the club overall. I appreciate increased participation from women.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2015, 11:52:18 AM »
Let's be careful and not want women to play just because it's what we like to do. That's a recipe for neither of you playing.

JESII

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2015, 11:52:49 AM »
That last point is really the key...golfs future is local. Each course has its own best use and it's up to them to figure it out.

My wife fell off a treadmill once...

MCirba

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2015, 11:53:07 AM »
Some very interesting commentary here...

One of the most relevant items I'd contribute to the discussion is the fact that during the early years of golf in America lots of women played the game and it was very vibrant.

During our research around Cobb's Creek, we were surprised to learn that pictures revealed almost as many women as men in line to play.   Indeed, stories from the time punctuated this fact.

Somehow, during the time period after WWII we lost them, or at least lost a lot of them.   How much this had to do with longer and harder courses is a matter of speculation, and there are likely a host of societal reasons, as well.

However, looking at demographics and the increasing power of women in our economy as well as in the home, I'd ask those who don't see it coming why they need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows?  ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2015, 11:59:57 AM »
That last point is really the key...golfs future is local. Each course has its own best use and it's up to them to figure it out.

My wife fell off a treadmill once...

My wife fell off once also. Broke her wrist and was lucky it wasn't fatal. She had taken a phone call and stepped back on not knowing the belt was still turning.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2015, 01:03:43 PM »
  Change will come incremental from the bottom up not from (judicial activism), so hope may come but it will probably fall on deaf ears. 

judicial activism=a decision you do not like.

Sounds like somebody has switched it over to AM.   

Jason Thurman

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2015, 02:05:32 PM »
That's giving a lot of credit. My guess is the car came that way.

I went back and read through a couple of the articles posted. A few random thoughts:

* According to the playbook, if courses want to attract women, they need to have great food, a fully stocked and color-coordinated pro shop, staff that knows the customer's name and walks with them to show them to bathrooms or dining areas, spotlessly clean facilities, comprehensive signage directing players around (76% of women rate on-course signage as one of their three most important factors when choosing a course? Seriously? I mean, I knew women were bad with directions, but this is a whole new level...), and staff should even research facts about their female customers to bring up in conversation through sources like Pinterest or Facebook. Ironically, this "blueprint for success" sounds just like the model that most of the clubs I know of that have gone bankrupt in the last ten years were following, aside from the cyber-stalking part.

* What implications are there to making courses more female friendly? One of the articles mentions eliminating cross hazards and forced carries, but really all types of hazards are disasters for women. If you wanted to bet me that we could go watch play on a random hole at a random municipal course for a day and that women in bunkers on the hole would extract the ball in a single swing over 40% of the time, I'd take you on and finance my next golf trip. And yet, those same hazards add interest for your core players. At what point do you dumb the architecture down so much that your core players become disinterested?

* The articles also advocate shorter and shorter tees for women. While tees at 4,000 yards or less may make it possible for women to hit more GIRs and make more pars, it has other negative ramifications. Assuming a regulation course that's routed to be very walkable from a set of tees around 6000 yards or so (in other words, the ideal GCA.com routing), players using the 4,000 yard tees are going to average an extra 100+ yards of walking between transitions. Even in a cart, that kind of lull in the action every 6 or 7 strokes gets pretty dull.

We've never really been on-topic during this thread, but there are real architectural issues with trying to engage women on regulation courses. In that light, it makes sense to try to tap the women's market, as Tom Doak suggested, through shorter 9 hole courses with easily avoidable/escapable hazards and low greens fees. But how do you build a course like that and still offer the great food, huge pro shop, full-service cyber-stalking staff, signage, fully-stocked bathrooms, and other plush amenities that the Connecting With Her Playbook suggests are necessary to really attract the female market?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 02:08:41 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Steve Lang

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2015, 09:22:14 PM »
 8) they were there years ago, the guy with a cigar (is that CBM?), the manly swing of perfect form, the kids in waiting

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2015, 09:57:58 PM »
I'm proud because of what I saw at our club yesterday.  A father was out playing with his daughter - I'm guessing she was about 12.   Her swing was smooth as silk and she hit the ball very, very well.  And it was easy to see that she was having a great time.

Oh wait.  She shouldn't be out there, because golf courses are places for MEN to be men, to drink, smoke cigars, bet, and curse.  And urinate.

My gawd people.  You're not in high school  Grow up.  Be a gentleman.  After all, isn't a "gentleman" what we should think of when we think of a man that is a golfer?

GLawson

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2015, 10:09:55 PM »
Well said, Dan!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2015, 10:41:36 PM »
Dan,

I think you and your wife are a beautiful couple and would go so far to say that at times I am jealous of couples like you who share a common love of the game. The only fault I have with women golfers is their fear of playing through. It torments both the groups behind and in front of them.

My issue is with the selfish men who want women to enjoy golf because they do. I would prefer those men give up golf and find an activity their wives enjoy. Better that than a couple of unhappy golfer just going through the motions.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2015, 11:14:51 PM »
David,

A modern woman plays quicker from antiquated women's tees than an antiquated man from modern back tees.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 11:20:17 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Sean_A

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2015, 03:26:40 AM »
David

All I have is anecdotal evidence, which tells me that women at the club level in the UK (what is the point of talking about pros?) are quick players...even the juniors.  That said, I am still confused as to why people think women are the key to the future of golf. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jud_T

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Re: The key to the future of golf...is Women
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2015, 05:10:44 AM »
Dave,

If all you can offer them is a tee that's 500 yards too long and a 130+ slope you can't really expect them to zip around in 3 hours (or enjoy the game).  It's like forcing every 20+ hdcp man to play the tips.  It'd be interesting to track the green in reg stats for each tee at a lot of our sacred cow clubs.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak