Muirfield Village-Emerald City?

[jeffwarne]

Is there a highly ranked course with less texture and color variety than Muirfield Village?

edit: well Phil just added some texture with his TWO practice swing divots on 18.
what a tool

[noonan]

It is pretty.

[Dave McCollum]

It looks like the kind of course that pros and skilled amateurs should play to massage their vanity that they can play the toughest.  I can understand this desire, but only as a novel, one-off, experience.  As a steady, daily, weekly, recreation and social enterprise, not my cup of tea.  I think most golfers play for fun, shared with friends.  Muirfield seems like a poor location for this purpose. 

I must confess I enjoy watching very skilled golfers playing difficult courses.  It is where they should be having their competitions because why else do we need this kind of course?  Of recent fare on TV, there was Concession for the NCAA and now Muirfield.  Perfect for testing the best.  Rubbish for fun for most golfers.  There was also RCD which did well in this regard also.  However, the scale and beauty of the landscape added an aesthetic dimension that over powered the difficulty of the course and conditions.  I don’t get out much, but RCD is probably the best course I’ve ever played (TOC exempted for the usual reasons) IMHO.  Yes, it was difficult, but it was also fun.  I suppose I should admit that I played one of my best rounds there.  The tipical anticipation/reward equation for an average hack.  Just my unsolicited $.02.

[Jim Franklin]

Columbus gets more than its fair share of rain which adds to the greeness of the course.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - this will sound like I'm being a smart ass, but I don't mean to be. I wonder if JN's colour blindness has at least something to do with this. He has tinkered continually with MV, but it has been all about length and angles and hazards and greens and conditioning - and maybe in some deep way 'texture' and 'shading' are simply not on his radar.
Peter

[Josh Bills]

Jeff,  The terrain is wonderfully hilly and to me that is enough.  I believe the high TV towers distort the great land movement that is present at MVGC.  The routing is pretty solid and despite its difficulty, it is playable, unless the rough is how they have it for the tournament.  The depth of some of the fairway bunkers is quite intimidating in person and definitely not a place you want to go.  Are the fairways smooth and manicured, yes.  But the slopes, rolling hills and sidehill/downhill/uphill lies are more than enough texture.  The creeks that meander throughout the property add texture as well.  I will agree, once on the greens they are lightening quick, which likely reduces the slopes (texture?), but to say there is no texture, I would disagree.   

As for color, is the course green, yes, but so is Augusta and every other PGA tour course.  Am I saying this is Augusta, no.  Does the pine straw add texture and value to the design at Augusta that MVGC is lacking, I don't think so.  It is a pretty course, but overall I enjoy the routing and while not in agreement with all the bunkers on 18, overall it is a testing course that is playable in my opinion (assuming the rough is cut, which the two times I played it was playable).  Would I be happy to play it everyday, absolutely. 

Here are a few photos I took with my phone from my visit there earlier in the week of holes that don't usually show up on TV, hoping to show a little texture. 

Here is the short par 3, 8th


and the par 5, 5th


and the par 5, 7th


and the par 4, 6th

[Jason Thurman]

It's been a rather wet and unseasonably cool couple of weeks in Ohio leading to this tournament. What suggestions do you have for how the committee should have added "texture" to the course leading into this week's play? Alternatively, could you discuss what "texture" you would like to have seen incorporated into the design of this Central Ohio parkland course?

[BCowan]

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KOSU/2015/5/5/MonthlyCalendar.html?locid=USOH0269&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

May in Dublin,OH- 2.45 inches of rain this May.
Average rain in Dublin, OH 3.75 inches in May.

May 27th- June 3rd- .44 inches of rain.
June 1st-June 3rd there was slight cold front, other than that weather shows to be normal.  May was a dry month.

[Jason Thurman]

Here's a photo from outside my office today during my midday walk with a few coworkers:



Note the deplorable lack of texture. None of this turf is irrigated, and most of it is just weeds and local grasses. The bentgrass golf course next door is a deep emerald hue.

In breaking news, grass in Ohio is green during early June, as are trees. I'm not interested in arguing about this, especially with a guy who believes sea levels haven't risen in the last 20 years. I would, however, be interested in reading responses to my questions in the previous post, which are architecture-related, as my former club's greens committee frequently dealt with the question of how to incorporate more texture into our Ohio parkland Emerald City-resembling course. Please write decipherably.

[BCowan]

It seems as the photo provided by our very own self proclaimed Jackass, displays grass that is 2+ inches, didn't know MV fairways were that long .  Much more texture and contrast in his photo than MV.  MV has weeds?  What is the guy views who wears Purple pants on adding texture?  I know one has to resort to sea levels of prior threads when up against facts in which i presented (Real science).  Perhaps our very own arrogant gcaer can go on a polar voyage to measure ice depths and get stuck in the rising sea levels!  

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   What texture would you add?  dye the creeks and ponds a baby blue color?  One that is way out there would be sand capped grassy knolls.  I'd say leave it alone 98% of people love it. 

[Jason Thurman]

Interesting suggestion. I hadn't thought about Muirfield Village trying to add texture by growing 2+ inch fairways with weeds. I suppose that would accomplish the basic task of adding texture. The skeptic in me thinks that their membership might not go for it though. Buncha damn corporate-ass, glorified retail golfers.

[JC Jones]

Interesting suggestion. I hadn't thought about Muirfield Village trying to add texture by growing 2+ inch fairways with weeds. I suppose that would accomplish the basic task of adding texture. The skeptic in me thinks that their membership might not go for it though. Buncha damn corporate-ass glorified retail golfers.

More time for the famous milkshakes tho

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,  The terrain is wonderfully hilly and to me that is enough.  I believe the high TV towers distort the great land movement that is present at MVGC.  The routing is pretty solid and despite its difficulty, it is playable, unless the rough is how they have it for the tournament.  The depth of some of the fairway bunkers is quite intimidating in person and definitely not a place you want to go.  Are the fairways smooth and manicured, yes.  But the slopes, rolling hills and sidehill/downhill/uphill lies are more than enough texture.  The creeks that meander throughout the property add texture as well.  I will agree, once on the greens they are lightening quick, which likely reduces the slopes (texture?), but to say there is no texture, I would disagree.    

As for color, is the course green, yes, but so is Augusta and every other PGA tour course.  Am I saying this is Augusta, no.  Does the pine straw add texture and value to the design at Augusta that MVGC is lacking, I don't think so.  It is a pretty course, but overall I enjoy the routing and while not in agreement with all the bunkers on 18, overall it is a testing course that is playable in my opinion (assuming the rough is cut, which the two times I played it was playable).  Would I be happy to play it everyday, absolutely.  

Here are a few photos I took with my phone from my visit there earlier in the week of holes that don't usually show up on TV, hoping to show a little texture.  

Here is the short par 3, 8th


and the par 5, 5th


and the par 5, 7th


and the par 4, 6th

Josh,
Nice, articulate post that addressed the question
Thanks
No doubt that MV, like Augusta, is much more dramatic in person,particularly the bunker depth and elevation change
(I would argue that ANGC has more texture with the pines and pine needles, as well as the remnants and enhancements of the former nursery vegetation)

There are many ways to add texture-

Native vegetation, in isolated, unirrigated out of play areas.
Sand that's not blinding white.(at least that white crap everybody uses comes from there in Ohio)
Bunkers that don't look like amoebas.
Blowing up the awful clubhouse-again.
Playing it in the fall as the leaves change .

That said, by nearly all accounts it's a great course so perhaps its complete lack of texture is no big deal

[Josh Bills]

Jeff,

I agree the clubhouse is an eyesore, I can only assume it was done to provide more convenience for the players and members. 

Walking around I also forgot how many houses are right on the course on basically every hole.  Mind you they are nice houses, but it is definitely surrounded by houses. I assume that is why there are not native areas, as all the houses have similarly manicured lawns and it would truthfully look out of place for a large native area.  There are a few areas where honeysuckle has infiltrated and been allowed to take over, i.e. left of 1 and 2, left of 5, left of 11, but for the most part, the course is very well kept and maintained. 

Agree the bunker shapes are amoeba like, but they are consistent throughout the course and are really, really deep. 

The course fits the environment that has been created well and credit to Jack for creating a course that is of championship caliber in his own back yard.  I look forward to watching this weekend.

Josh

[Mike Schott]

It's been a rather wet and unseasonably cool couple of weeks in Ohio leading to this tournament. What suggestions do you have for how the committee should have added "texture" to the course leading into this week's play? Alternatively, could you discuss what "texture" you would like to have seen incorporated into the design of this Central Ohio parkland course?

Perfectly stated Jason. This is the humid Midwest. We don't do firm and fast very well in this part of the country. And as Jason said, this is parkland golf. I have not seen MV in person but I find it to be a lovely course. The use of water hazards is among the best I've seen.

[BCowan]

Interesting suggestion. I hadn't thought about Muirfield Village trying to add texture by growing 2+ inch fairways with weeds. I suppose that would accomplish the basic task of adding texture. The skeptic in me thinks that their membership might not go for it though. Buncha damn corporate-ass, glorified retail golfers.

I knew I'd have to explain this future for you aren't comparing apples to apples with ur employers 2inch grass lawn and MVs fairways that are cut somewhere around 3/8 of an inch.  Grass that is short drys out very fast compared to 2+ inch grass.  I also debunked ur rain statement for its been very dry this spring.  I work and have worked outside in cbus, cinci, and Dayton during spring seasons.  Inverness is a parkland course and would play very firm with a non emerald green tint a week in April every so often when sprinklers were kept off during cool and dry stretch.  I can keep debunking ur posts.  It's MV/PGA tour wanting it to be emerald, is why it's emerald.

[Josh Bills]

Ben,

This is how you get firm and fast conditions on PGA Tour courses and maintain the green look.  He used the roller all the way down the fronting slope.  This is the 14th at MVGC late in the day during a practice round.

[Joe Hancock]

Jeff,

I don't know the answer to your original question, but I am surprised that you got jumped over it. It just goes to show what the majority truly prioritize in the golf course presentation.

None of this stuff is a function of architecture, but it affects it nonetheless.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Joe, if you were surprised I would say your standards for here are too high. 

Limiting grass varieties limits variegation (duh) but that doesn't mean texture is the sum total of variegation. (TGC just across town has plenty of texture; it ain't the weather or the climate holding back MVGC.)

[Peter Pallotta]

Limiting grass varieties limits variegation (duh) but that doesn't mean texture is the sum total of variegation. (TGC just across town has plenty of texture; it ain't the weather or the climate holding back MVGC.)

Thank you.

[Brent Hutto]

Jack's a pretty clever fellow and Muirfield Village has more resources available than most clubs. Sometimes I think it's best to apply the principle of assuming the simplest answer that fits the facts is actually true.

In which case it would seem that Jack and Muirfield Village have a preference for wall to wall emerald green and that we're seeing their preferred presentation of the course.

So I'd answer Jeff's question by saying no, I can not off hand think of a highly ranked course with less variety in color or texture. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I mean heck, they've even got some trees on the property that haven't been cut down! WTF's up with that?

[Jason Thurman]

Walking around I also forgot how many houses are right on the course on basically every hole.  Mind you they are nice houses, but it is definitely surrounded by houses. I assume that is why there are not native areas, as all the houses have similarly manicured lawns and it would truthfully look out of place for a large native area.  There are a few areas where honeysuckle has infiltrated and been allowed to take over, i.e. left of 1 and 2, left of 5, left of 11, but for the most part, the course is very well kept and maintained...

The course fits the environment that has been created well and credit to Jack for creating a course that is of championship caliber in his own back yard.  I look forward to watching this weekend.

Beautifully said.

There are plenty of courses in Ohio that have a wider color palette than Muirfield Village. I'm not suggesting it would be horticulturally impossible for them to add some wispy fescue areas and other Viagra-for-GCAer features. But those features wouldn't fit the course's setting, and certainly wouldn't look as good as they do in a far more natural setting at a place like The Golf Club. Residential parkland courses like Muirfield Village aren't generally my favorite aesthetically, but that doesn't mean I think a Sand Hills meets Pacific Dunes look is appropriate on such sites either.

Jeff,

I don't know the answer to your original question, but I am surprised that you got jumped over it. It just goes to show what the majority truly prioritize in the golf course presentation.

None of this stuff is a function of architecture, but it affects it nonetheless.

Who jumped him? Josh has written two well-reasoned, articulate posts with supporting evidence. Jerry and Jim voiced fair, simple, alternative thoughts. I think the questions I asked Jeff in my initial post were fair. I guess I forget sometimes that it's a serious breach of etiquette around here to fail to join the chorus when criticism is leveled against a Nicklaus course that doesn't look like the work of a post-Sebonack Doak cover band.

[BCowan]

''Ben,

This is how you get firm and fast conditions on PGA Tour courses and maintain the green look.  He used the roller all the way down the fronting slope.  This is the 14th at MVGC late in the day during a practice round. ''

Josh,

   That is how you drive the cost of maintenance up.  Firm conditions are achieved through mother nature and turning off the sprinklers.  They maintain a green look due to MV cutting their greens extremely short thus requiring water to cool the soil temp. 

  ''I believe the high TV towers distort the great land movement that is present at MVGC.  The routing is pretty solid and despite its difficulty, it is playable, unless the rough is how they have it for the tournament.    But the slopes, rolling hills and sidehill/downhill/uphill lies are more than enough texture.  The creeks that meander throughout the property add texture as well.  I will agree, once on the greens they are lightening quick, which likely reduces the slopes (texture?), but to say there is no texture, I would disagree.   

As for color, is the course green, yes, but so is Augusta and every other PGA tour course.  Am I saying this is Augusta, no.  Does the pine straw add texture and value to the design at Augusta that MVGC is lacking, I don't think so.  It is a pretty course, but overall I enjoy the routing and while not in agreement with all the bunkers on 18, overall it is a testing course that is playable in my opinion (assuming the rough is cut, which the two times I played it was playable).  Would I be happy to play it everyday, absolutely. ''

Josh,

   I disagree, I think TV does a fine job of showing the land movement on a macro level.  Obviously you can't tell green contours on a micro level.  The routing is decent, but the land makes up for the routing imo.  There are 5 ponds on the course and the creek(s) on the routing.  13 holes have water, is that texture?  Especially a course in Central Ohio, I don't think it is.  All the water is repetitive, so I don't consider them texture.   
   

[BCowan]

There are plenty of courses in Ohio that have a wider color palette than Muirfield Village. I'm not suggesting it would be horticulturally impossible for them to add some wispy fescue areas and other Viagra-for-GCAer features. But those features wouldn't fit the course's setting, and certainly wouldn't look as good as they do in a far more natural setting at a place like The Golf Club. Residential parkland courses like Muirfield Village aren't generally my favorite aesthetically, but that doesn't mean I think a Sand Hills meets Pacific Dunes look is appropriate on such sites either.

    Have you seen an Arboretum Parklands course transform into a great Parklands course with fescue added in spots?  If you have you would probably have a different opinion.   ''Those features don't fit the courses setting''- Why?  Have you played MVGC?  Have you played the Golf Club?  I don't think the Golf club is the best example.  I do not consider MVGC a residential golf course, even though houses are on it.  The houses are well away from the playing lines and aren't on that many holes.


Who jumped him? Josh has written two well-reasoned, articulate posts with supporting evidence. Jerry and Jim voiced fair, simple, alternative thoughts. I think the questions I asked Jeff in my initial post were fair. I guess I forget sometimes that it's a serious breach of etiquette around here to fail to join the chorus when criticism is leveled against a Nicklaus course that doesn't look like the work of a post-Sebonack Doak cover band.

     What evidence did Josh provide?  Again it's a Desmond Muirhead routing.  He was surprised JN couldn't draw when he first met him.  I criticize Muirhead and I like another course I've played of his.  I criticize MVGC cause it favors a high ball hitter and there really isn't many options to play the course, very redundant.  I don't think the course plays well if firm conditions are provided by mother nature.  Obviously Doak has had an influence on him on his later designs.