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mark chalfant

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help re Alex Findlay
« on: September 08, 2003, 11:08:13 PM »
What are some of  his design  strengths.....all work in  Pa. ?

Most interesting layouts ?

is  Tavistock  nice ?

Pittsburgh  Field- engaging routing or fun to play ??

thanks....

Dan Herrmann

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2003, 09:45:31 AM »
I was a member at one of his courses - Coatesville CC in Chester County.  

Unfortunately, the course isn't anywhere as nice as it could be because it's so overgown with trees.  Also, they ruined #1 by building a parking lot where the tee was and providing a 15 yard wide fairway from the original green location to the new green location.  

It's a quirky design - very, very hilly with some crazy sidehill lies.  

He also designed Reading Country Club.  Haven't played it, but it looks very beautiful from the road out front.

A.G._Crockett

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2003, 09:49:57 AM »
Mark,
I posted a thread about Fred Findlay, Alex's brother, after playing a course of his in VA.  Some of the comments dealt with Alex as well.  The thread would have been somewhere around July 25 or so.  You might want to look back in the previous pages.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JSlonis

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2003, 02:23:00 PM »
Mark,

I am a member at Tavistock CC.   I have done some research this year on Findlay because we are going to do some restoration work. There is not alot of info on Findlay to be found.  Tavistock is one of his latest and among the best of his designs.  I have found out that Tillinghast had done some consulting and architectural work with Findlay at Tavistock.  Currently we are working with Ron Forse's design company on a master restoration plan.  Most of the work will be recapturing lost green space, redoing the bunkers and removing as many trees as possible.  We are also going to add some new back tees where feasible to keep pace with the modern equipment.

From what I have gathered of his design style, his early work was very basic, and not particularly noteworthy.  It seems as though as he progressed and was exposed to more of the well known designers of the time, that he incorporated some of their principles into his style.  At Tavistock his greensite designs are very interesting and quite unique.  Jim Nagle from Forse design was impressed with our green designs and was excited about the opportunity to rework the greensizes and the greenside bunkers that had been changed over the years
« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 02:54:01 PM by JSlonis »

mike_malone

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2003, 02:30:35 PM »
 I think Findlay also did Llanerch.The club's scorecard says it used to be 27 holes.
    Some challenging green complexes can be found at this neighbor of ours.
AKA Mayday

Dan Herrmann

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2003, 04:16:22 PM »
mayday,
I'm glad you mentioned the green complexes.  Legend has it that Coatesville has a green (#7) that was built backwards - it slopes significantly from front to back.  Four putts aren't unusual at this short very much uphill par 4.

I also found this at Coatesville's website (www.coatesvillecountryclub.com):
Coatesville Country Club was designed by one of the first golf course architects in America, the renowned Mr. Alex Findlay in 1921. Other courses designed by Mr. Findlay include: Llanerch C.C., Reading C.C., Center Hills, Medford Lakes and Greenbriar Golf Course (Lakeside Course) in West Virginia.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 04:27:38 PM by danherrmann »

Craig_Rokke

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2003, 08:31:28 PM »
I've played a few Findlay's: Valley Forge, Coatesville, Galen Hall front 9, and Walnut Lane. The last 3 in particular share
some topography that gets pretty wild in spots, and I wouldn't be surprised if Findlay really enjoyed those kinds of sites. He created a number of holes (ie #2 G Hall) that you would never see built today. There are also a bunch of fun, albeit short holes at Walnut Lane in Phila., which gets a favorable write-up in the "Courses by Country" section of this website.

mark chalfant

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2003, 09:49:59 PM »
thanks for the info !

Sounds like Findlay had a healthy attitude regarding  quirk.

could anyone tell us a liittle more about  Llanerch  or

Pittsburgh  Field Club ??

thanks.

mike_malone

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2003, 10:14:43 PM »
 Llanerch is a course i play quite a bit.I have said that the designer realized he  had to do six more holes but had room for only four.So,it is cramped at the end.I have serious tree issues there as well.But the greens are very interesting in internal contours and there are some neat holes.
    The 1970's tendency to separate every hole with evergreens is maddening to me .The members would be shocked at how much beauty and strategy is being hidden if they opened up the course.


 I have played Reading a few times as well.It is sporty but again has  separated each hole and is quite short.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2003, 10:51:47 PM »
Mark;

Alex Findlay was perhaps as much of a "Johnny Appleseed", cultivating the growth of the game in this country in the early years, as anyone else.  

He built MANY courses, mostly on the east coast, where he was employed by one of the major sporting goods companies (which had teamed with a railroad company) to promote the game and build new courses.  He worked from Maine to Florida, and as far west as Nebraska where he built a rudimentary nine-holer in the 1880s.

He was great friends with the Vardons and Rays and other celebrities of the game, and was quite an accomplished player in his own right.  So enthusiastic was Findlay in promoting the game, he even travelled to the Vatican, hoping to convince the Pope to build a course there.

I've played many Findlay courses, and there are quite a few of them in the Philadelphia area, where he eventually settled in the late teens through the remainder of his life.  He kept busy designing courses even after the Depression in that area, and some of his most noted efforts have been mentioned.  If you would like to know more about which courses he built, I'd be happy to list some of them.

Generally, he was a functional architect, but one who was rather creative in his routings and use of natural landforms.  Some quick impressions of his design style are as follows;

* He was not one for using a lot of fairway bunkers, preferring instead to use the contours of the land to dictate positioning.

* Most of his greensites were bunkered on both sides, at 4 and 8 o'clock, with longish bunkers squeezing the approach.

* His greens tended to be narrow but deep, requiring both accuracy and distance control.  The worst sin on Findlay courses is to miss your approaches to the sides due to this narrowness.

* He did very little in the way of creating mounds or other obviously artificial features, although his greens generally rise up a little from the surrounding terrain, and he created mounds on the back side of his bunkers.

* He seemed to love utilizing existing natural water hazards, and the use of the creek at Reading CC for instance, is wonderfully routed in a variety of ways.  He also wasn't opposed to using water, particularly creeks, as forced carry shots on approaches and par threes.

* Like many who followed him, such as Ross and Flynn, Findlay loved to build holes where both the tee and green were elevated, driving downhill and then approaching uphill.

* Findlay's greens were generally very naturally integrated into their surrounds, although some do "pop-up" sort of Raynor-like, and were as likely to use natural slope as anything with man-made created internal contours, although a number of his greens have distinct "levels"

* Findlay was not averse to creating steeply uphill holes, particularly on par threes, many of which one can only see the top half of the flagstick.

* Conversely, Findlay created some dramatic drop shot par threes, and some of them still play very long and difficult to this day despite the downhill slope.

* One of his favorite tactics was to build short par four holes where the player is asked to drive directly into a steep sideslope with the hole turning quickly in the direction of the slope.  On those holes, the player is tempted to bite off more than they can chew, and missing on the short side is certain death.  However, on those same holes, the player who plays too timidly is left with a steeply side-sloped shot with everything running away from them.

* Findlay also seemed to used forested areas in interesting ways, where a player is tempted to keep it close to trouble to gain an advantageous line for the subsequent shot.  He also seemed to like to tuck his greensites into little glades and around corners of existing mature trees.  However, many of his courses today suffer from overplanting of trees along fairway corridors, which clearly differs from the original design intent.

* Findlay seemed to LOVE blind shots, and I don't know a course of his I've played that doesn't feature at least one of them on the approach, and usually quite a few where the landing area might not be from the tee.  My favorite hole of his is the 11th at Reading, which bears some similarlity in the feel of the approch to the Alps Hole at NGLA, except with OB close behind.  

I hope this synopsis give you a feel for his style and influence.  Please feel free to ask me to clarify or detail any of the above.  :)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 09:37:14 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2003, 09:18:44 AM »
I should also mention that my impressions of Findlay's architectural style is based on playing 16 of his courses.  

Interestingly, I've yet to play two of his reputed best in the local Philly area, Llanerch and Tavistock.  Hope to rectify that.

Adam_Messix

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2003, 10:45:47 AM »
Mike Cirba's synopsis of Alex Findlay's design characteristics is pretty much dead on from what I have seen.  I grew up playing at a course that has 9 holes designed by Findlay that fortunately hasn't been tinkered with too much.  

Someone mentioned earlier about Findlay occasionally designing a front to back sloped green and he definitely did one at Chester River (the 2nd hole).  The good fortune we've had is that the course is usually kept very firm and fast so a run up shot is not only possible but usually the only play.  I have not seen #7 at Coatesville, but the 2nd green at CR is downright severe from front to back, basicially following the general contour of the surrounding terrain.  

Mike mentioned that Findlay's greens are usually narrow, but deep making recovery from the sides difficult.  I would make an addendum to that saying that missing the green to one side is usually very difficult and missing on the other side is extremely difficult, barring a chip in from the other side or a long putt.  

I would put the Findlay courses that I have played in the "sporty" category.  

Adam_Messix

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2003, 10:48:02 AM »
There was a nice article written about Alex Findlay's life in Golf Journal a few years ago.  I still have a copy of it, although it does not talk about his architectural style at all.

Mike_Cirba

Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2003, 10:56:11 AM »
Adam;

As you know, the second at Chester River is a superb example of a Findlay hole that is fun, refreshing, quirky, and emimently challenging.

Depending on the length of the drive, it incorporates the seeming unworkable scenario of a completely blind approach to the fallaway green you describe.  Because one is aware that one needs to land short, however, there is a real thrill to trying to negotiate the approach just right, perhaps by taking two clubs less than the distance, and running up the hill out of the valley to see where a well-struck approach finishes.

Great stuff.   ;D

bill_k

Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2003, 11:09:55 AM »
I believe that the golf course at The Breakers in Palm Beach, FL. was originally designed by Findlay. I played it about 5 years ago-very short, with a handful of interesting short par- 4's. However, it is right on the water-so when the wind blows, it can turn from 5900 to 6700 yards in a hurry. I do believe it was either renovated or redesigned in 2002 so I have no idea how much of Findlay's work is left.

mike_malone

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2003, 11:12:30 AM »
 When Mike Cirba plays Llanerch he will find many of the things he listed.My favorite hole is #11.Par 4 of near 400 yards.The trees are away from play but frame the hole nicely.There is a gentle rise on the tee shot,but the main feature is the green that slopes from front to back.This is fun because there is a gentle rise up to the front of the green.The slope of the green is not dramatic;just enough to mess with your mind.
   If they used this hole as the model for the rest of the course they could significantly increase the strategy that was designed in originally.
AKA Mayday

Adam_Messix

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2003, 11:21:41 AM »
Bill_k--

The original course at the Breakers was originally designed by Findlay and I do believe it was the first 18 hole course in the state of Florida.  

I think Ross came in there and did some major redesign work at some point, probably when he was doing the nearby Palm Beach Country Club.  Brian Silva came in and restored/renovated the course in 2002 and did a really nice job.  From what I remember of the course, it is somewhat sympathetic to Ross and still plays reasonably long when the wind blows.  Anyone who plays it not may be confused by the holes because they were re-numbered due to the clubhouse being moved across the street from the hotel.  

mark chalfant

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2003, 05:14:57 PM »
Adam, thanks.

Mike C.  I really  appreciate your  thorough and interesting

synopsis of  Findlays  design  tendencies. Reading  CC sounds
wonderful.

If possible describe 2 or 3  other  AF courses that epitomize
some of   Alex Findlays characteristic architectural  features.

Did he do some nice par fives ?    
Which drop shot   par 3s are standouts ?

thanks again for your  earlier post.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2003, 06:42:22 AM »
Mark - #9 at Coatesville is probably a typical Findlay hole.  A nice downhill, relatively short par 4 dogleg left.  However, the slope of the hills force your tee shot right (if it was auto racing, there would be frequent crashes there).  


The green is approachable from the front, but misses to the sides spell disaster.  

Coatesville's drop shots aren't on the par 3's - they are on the 4's and 5's.  #10 is a killer tee shot - straight and very uphill, and most second shots are also uphill.  However your third shot is usually a nice drop shot.  

Coatesville has many holes that go up from the tee/down to the green, or down from the tee an up to the green.  The greens are very tricky.  It's a very beautiful course, but the tree overgrowth may be ruining it.

I saw some of Coatesville's same early design techniques carried much, much, much better at Rolling Green during our GCA outing.   The uphill approaches to the greens, the killer slopes on the greens, some "reverse banking" on the doglegs, etc...  But RG was more subtle, and a truly excellent course where Coatesville is, well, quirky :)

mark chalfant

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2003, 10:05:56 PM »
danhermann,

thanks for the info re Coatesville




it sounds like a neat piece  of land that  Findlay used well


Mark

mark chalfant

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2003, 05:57:22 PM »
 A well traveled friend recently told me that the back nine at

Lebanon  CC  ( Hershey, PA) is a   nice example  of Findlays  work.

 Does anyone else enjoy this course ?  


thanks

GregRamsay

Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2003, 02:13:35 AM »
Was Findlay part of the Scottish golfing diaspora?  Does anyone know where he originally came from?  The very first Royal Melbourne course (in East Malvern) was laid out by Messrs Finlay & Conacher in 1891.  I realise the spelling difference, but a possible connection!

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

Dan Herrmann

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Re:help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2003, 04:30:47 PM »
I have a very old book called the "Badminton Series - Golf" with a lot of info on the old architects.  I'll see if I can dig anything up (if we ever get our power back here in SE Pennsylvania!)

Jim Furyk should take that Excelon energy thingy off his shirt, because a lot of are VERY upset at Excelon - not they they lost power, but that we are left totally clueless as to when it's coming back.


Tom MacWood

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Re: help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2010, 06:15:41 AM »
bump

Rick Sides

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Re: help re Alex Findlay
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2010, 06:54:03 AM »
Findlay also designed 9 holes for Medford Lakes Country Club in S. Jersey in 1930.  It is a nice layout albeit a pretty flat piece of land.

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