How about relocating golf courses?

[Bill_Yates]

The thread on Recycling Sites reminded me of a note I read in the recent R&A "Golf Around the World" study. It says, "Australia has 25 courses in development. In addition to new courses in Australia, existing golf courses are changing locations. In more densely populated areas such as Melbourne, developers have been making deals with golf clubs to purchase existing courses in order to redevelop them into much needed housing. In exchange, these developers are relocating the golf clubs and rebuilding the golf courses in more rural or suburban areas."

Is this happening elsewhere? This is one way GCA's might get some new work.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

I've seen numerous examples of relocations in the U.S.A., though none in the past few years.  Austin Country Club in TX was one, going from the old Perry Maxwell course [now on the wrong side of town] to a brand-new Pete Dye course.  In many cases, the club trades in an old, walkable, golfer-friendly design for a long and difficult track, because the members feel they've got a blank check from the developer and it leads to excess.  In Austin, the club champion at the old course shot 89 or 90 on Opening Day at the new course!

[Peter Pallotta]

Setting aside the vaguely uncomfortable feeling I get when I hear of golfers fleeing 'the wrong side of town', such moves seem surprisingly short-sighted, even from a merely self-serving economic perspective. In the two cities I know best, Toronto and New York, the few remaining 'wrong sides' won't stay that way for long. I don't know Austin at all, but would anyone be shocked if in 10 years the 'wrong side' is the coolest and most interesting (and even most 'desirable') part of town, and with a Perry Maxwell course to boot, while the area with the new Pete Dye course (and the course itself) has become a run of the mill eyesore? I remember that a couple of decades back, when Brooklyn Heights was already exquisite, no one was even considering Williamsburg as a place to be.

Peter

[Frank Pont]

Bill:

I've seen numerous examples of relocations in the U.S.A., though none in the past few years.  Austin Country Club in TX was one, going from the old Perry Maxwell course [now on the wrong side of town] to a brand-new Pete Dye course.  In many cases, the club trades in an old, walkable, golfer-friendly design for a long and difficult track, because the members feel they've got a blank check from the developer and it leads to excess.  In Austin, the club champion at the old course shot 89 or 90 on Opening Day at the new course!

El Prat in Barcelona is another example of this phenomena, was a very nice Arana course, then was relocated due to airport expansion and became a very difficult Norman course

[archie_struthers]

In Philadelphia we've had courses moved such as Bala, Overbrook , Philly Cricket just to name a few. It's not unusual and has precedent .

[Bill_Yates]

As a follow up; Are the new courses better than the original?  More fun to play? Losing members because of the travel?

Other unintended consequences....

[Greg Gilson]

As Bill points out, this is happening right now at relatively breakneck speed in/around Melbourne with a number of private, "member-owned" golf clubs. The first thing to note is that its the golf CLUB that is relocating , not the golf COURSE. Each case has its own issues/drivers ...however, in a majority of the examples over the past 10 years, my perception is:

-the club membership is aging and/or dwindling for all the other reasons discussed at length here & elsewhere. If not an immediate issue, the wiser committees see the writing on the wall and act

-the club's existing course is located in a suburb that used to be "out of town" but is now in the middle of suburbia and on relatively valuable land

-developers arrive and offer to take the existing club land for redevelopment. In exchange they move the club further out of town onto less valuable land, build them a grand, new, championship course and lovely clubhouse. They maybe even give the club some extra $ to keep them going for a while

-there is lots of angst surrounding the move. Older members don't like "change". Those that live close by, do not like having to drive further. Lots of members love the old course. However, eventually, $ win and the membership votes to move

-during and after the transition phase, lots of existing members join other clubs (avoiding the move) offset by a generally smaller number of new members joining the club for its championship course

-as pointed out already, invariably, the new championship course proves too challenging for its aging and/or new golfer membership and member numbers start dropping again. Member subscriptions have to rise (fewer members to pay the bills) creating a barrier to member recruitment

This process is playing out right now with impending high drama in the outer north east suburbs of Melbourne. 3 private clubs have or are in the process of moving to more or less the same area as an existing struggling "club" with 36 holes (The Heritage). There are about to be 4 clubs and 108 pretty new holes all within a small area. My understanding is that each of those clubs presently has around 300-600 members....in a market where the standard model is 1000 members +/- per club with an 18 hole course. Naturally, the economics at all of those clubs are sucking wind badly. Any smart person sees that mergers and integrations are the way to go. Half the clubs and half the holes and you may have 2 strong entities. Stay like this and all 4 fail. However, "club pride" and stubborn-ness are killing common sense.

Most of this (clubs moving from inner city areas further....and further...and further out of town) is as old as the game, of course. It will be interesting (and sad, probably) to see where the current episode takes us.

[Matthew Rose]

The thread on Recycling Sites reminded me of a note I read in the recent R&A "Golf Around the World" study. It says, "Australia has 25 courses in development. In addition to new courses in Australia, existing golf courses are changing locations. In more densely populated areas such as Melbourne, developers have been making deals with golf clubs to purchase existing courses in order to redevelop them into much needed housing. In exchange, these developers are relocating the golf clubs and rebuilding the golf courses in more rural or suburban areas."

Is this happening elsewhere? This is one way GCA's might get some new work.

I know one example in Melbourne is the Sunshine Golf Club, which moved to the opposite side of a new freeway bypass. The new course is designed by Craig Parry (who is from the area) and I played it once and found to be pretty mediocre... but I never played the original, so I have nothing to compare it to. But I'm fairly certain the original one didn't have American style bunkers and lakes on it.

[Matthew Petersen]

Setting aside the vaguely uncomfortable feeling I get when I hear of golfers fleeing 'the wrong side of town', such moves seem surprisingly short-sighted, even from a merely self-serving economic perspective. In the two cities I know best, Toronto and New York, the few remaining 'wrong sides' won't stay that way for long. I don't know Austin at all, but would anyone be shocked if in 10 years the 'wrong side' is the coolest and most interesting (and even most 'desirable') part of town, and with a Perry Maxwell course to boot, while the area with the new Pete Dye course (and the course itself) has become a run of the mill eyesore? I remember that a couple of decades back, when Brooklyn Heights was already exquisite, no one was even considering Williamsburg as a place to be.

Peter

Peter,

ACC moved from the old Maxwell course -- which still exists and is now public, but not very well cared for -- in 1984. 30+ years later, Austin has changed a lot, but the neighborhood where the old course sits is still very much not the best side of town. 10 more years could change that, I suppose, but Texas ain't NYC (not even Austin).

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Fresh Meadow CC(Tillinghast) moved from Flushing, NY to Lake Success on Long Island in 1946 as the land became more valuable for development:

http://www.freshmeadow.org/node/665

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_Meadow_Country_Club

Add Cedarbrook CC (Tillinghast) to the list of Philaelphia clubs that moved.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think this will get more common. Peter, it's typically not that clubs are on the wrong side of town but the right one - their sites are worth so much for development they figure it is a no brainer to up sticks and move.

Just before the recession, Dun Laoghaire GC in Ireland sold its old Colt course to a housing developer. Marc Westonborg of Hawtrees built them a new 27 hole complex about ten miles south near Bray, huge clubhouse etc, and they came out of the deal with, allegedly, €20 million in the bank. For clubs in expensive urban or suburban  areas, this is going to become more popular. Royal Norwich in the UK is in the process of trying to do this right now.

[Thomas Dai]

Quite a few examples of GB&I courses on common land moving, eg HCoEG - Leith Links to Musselburgh to Muirfield, Royal Aberdeen from Kings Links to Balgownie etc etc

Kings Norton in Birmingham sold up in the early 1970's for housing and as part of the deal moved a bit further south and built 27-holes with an old manor house as their clubhouse.

I wonder how the Royal Norwich - Weston Park combination/development discussed herein last year is progressing? -  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57947.0.html

atb

[Joe_Tucholski]

I posted a series of photos yesterday about a US Army owned course that is going to be turned over to the Korean government once the completion of a new RTJ Army course is completed.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60988.msg1447203.html#msg1447203

Basically The US Army has a large base in a very nice area of downtown Seoul as well as an offsite stand alone golf course and a number of smaller bases.  Somehow  negotiations resulted in an agreement to relocate many of the Army base some 40 miles south (at a new construction cost rumored to be north of 10 billion dollars - mostly covered by the Korean government).
http://www.stripes.com/news/camp-humphreys-construction-largest-ever-for-military-slogs-on-1.225919

I'm not too confident the current course will survive, and definitely do not think the new course will be an improvement.  The new site was below flood planes and had to be filled such that it's basically flat (although it is now sand based).

[Adam Lawrence]

I wonder how the Royal Norwich - Weston Park combination/development discussed herein last year is progressing? -  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57947.0.html

Ross McMurray of EGD is doing the design for the new course. I spoke to him about it recently; the planning app is to go in fairly soon.

[JESII]

100 years ago Merion did exactly this...

[BCrosby]

The Standard Club in Atlanta did this in the late 1970's, selling their in-town location for big bucks and using the money to relocate north of town.

The Atlanta Athletic Club did a version of this in the mid 1970's. Their old East Lake course (36 holes at the time) was in a bad part of town. The AAC abandoned it and rebuilt 36 holes north of town, just down the road from the relocated Standard Club. A group of a hundred or so members of the AAC who disagreed with the move took over the East Lake course, sold off its No. 2 course and the rest is history.

Bob

  

[Sam Morrow]

In 10 more years I wouldn't be surprised if Riverside was gone completely. That said it's not like it's in the hood, just a more working class area.

[Carl Rogers]

Memphis, long time tour stop ....
The old Colonial Club was in town on Park Ave. and very him hemmed in.  The club re-located 15 minutes out Interstate 40 and held the Danny Thomas Memphis Classic for maybe 20 years or more (Trevino won at least twice, Player won once). Joe Fingers designed the course.
This was prior to the Beman TPC movement and now the event is at TPC Southwind.

The old site at Park Ave is now a mixed use development with a big Target store, all kinds of specialty shopping, apartments, condos, office bldg, etc.

[Brad Tufts]

Wollaston Golf Club just south of Boston did this in the late 80s/early 90s.

WGC built a Fazio Course in Canton, MA that opened in the early 90s, and soon hosted the US Junior.  Wollaston is ok, long and hard, but I will take the nutty greens and half-par holes at Prezy's!

President's Golf Course (viewable on the hilltop East of I-93 5 miles south of Boston) is now run by the city of Quincy, and packs a ton a fun into 5700 yards, par 70.  They still host the Norfolk County Classic, the kickoff of the amateur POY point-earning season with a great field.  The course goes back to c. 1900, and many of the early pros used the course to practice in the wind before going overseas.  The course was recently re-designed with new bunkering and a few holes were modified for safety.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Moor Allerton (MacKenzie) sold up in Leeds and moved to a brand new Trent Jones course(s) in the country well outside Leeds. The knock-on effects on neighbouring Moortown were unfortunate.

[Brent Hutto]

Can this thread title be edited?

Relocating a golf *course* is a concept that doesn't exist. We're talking about golf *clubs* building another course in a new location and abandoning the old one. In terms of GCA that means one course either changing ownership or becoming NLE and a new course being built.

It's kind of like the slip of the tongue when people refer to this site at Golf Course Atlas...which of course it actually is...except for the fact that so much of the discussion centers on golf courses owned by private clubs...

[Bill_Yates]

Brent,
I agree completely. However, the "relocating" language was used by the R&A.

Thanks, I was hoping someone would point out the fact that "relocating" a golf course (not a golf club) would be a physical impossibility. The best that could be hoped for is to attempt to "recreate" a golf course on another site. And how impossibly difficult would that be?

Does anyone know if there are any examples of that ever being attempted?

[Brent Hutto]

Bill,

It almost seems like whoever wrote that R&A bit is thinking golf "course" is a fungible commodity. Here we'll buy 18 holes from you in this spot and give you 18 holes in that spot. As if any grounds for playing golf is the same.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Brent,
I agree completely. However, the "relocating" language was used by the R&A.

Thanks, I was hoping someone would point out the fact that "relocating" a golf course (not a golf club) would be a physical impossibility. The best that could be hoped for is to attempt to "recreate" a golf course on another site. And how impossibly difficult would that be?

Does anyone know if there are any examples of that ever being attempted?

Yeah, but there's no reason you couldn't harvest the turf and sand and such and use it on the new course.  I wonder if this has ever happened.  Some courses are constructed completely from sod rather than seeded. 

[Bill_Yates]

Perhaps, but what I believe to be the heart and soul of any golf course would be impossibly expensive to replicate. And that would be the terrain, the contours and slopes, the vegetation and the views. Otherwise, it's just another course.