What defines a golf courses place in its region?

[Connor Dougherty]

I found myself recently at a golf shop here in Eugene watching the finish of the Players. A discussion quickly switched to talk of this years US Open host, Chambers Bay. The comments of the employee were very interesting. Some I downright disagreed with, others I found fascinating. For the sake of completeness, I'll list out the two big points he made, but I'm hoping the thread focuses on the 2rd, as I think that is the one which could lead to the more valuable discussion and the other two have been covered in previous threads.

1. He was completely underwhelmed with the course. He found that holes 7, 8, and 9 were awful, citing that he landed on the 9th green right in the middle and kicked into the bunker (when I offered that this was a characteristic of links-like golf, he countered with the ridiculous elevation drop not fitting in.
2. He claimed that the golf course "was an incredibly poor representation of golf in the Pacific Northwest." Perplexed by his answer, I asked why, but he couldn't quite find a reason to describe it. He continued by saying, "If they could find a way to have it at Bandon, that'd be so much better, but obviously that can't happen with the logistics of getting people there." This would indicate that it's not that the golf course is links-like that is creating his distaste for the golf course.

But since I heard his argument, I've continued to think about the argument that the golf course didn't fit in the Pacific Northwest. What defines how a golf course fits into place and its region? Surely if you were to build it off regional characteristics, every course in the Pacific Northwest would be lined with trees. But Bandon isn't, so why does that golf course fit in this region? How do courses like Shadow Creek fit into this argument?

I'd be interested to hear what you guys think before I start spewing my own thoughts.

[jeffwarne]

Perhaps you could introduce him to Jason's wife

I'm a big fan of playing courses that might be surprisingly unrepresentative of the stereotype of a region.
Noyack and Gardiner's Bay come to mind in The Hamptons, Longniddry in East Lothian, Killarney (Mahoney's Point) in Ireland .

[Jeff_Brauer]

Connor,

I generally understand what you are getting at,.  The Pacific NW has many streams, mountains, prairie valleys, too. So, taking one dominant feature and saying that is what all courses in the NW should look like is somewhat myopic, but understandable.

In northern MN we had a similar question.  We think of the northern US as evergreen forests, but many areas also had mining.  So, my two woodland courses and one quarry theme course could all fit in as part of the landscape, even if the quarry is a man made (or destructed) landscape.

I guess it just depends on what you take in (i.e. man made elements of cultural landscape) when you define the region. Given all the timber production in the NW, perhaps the most symbolic course would be one in an area stripped of trees, or in new regrowth, rather than fully wooded, old growth timber?

[Richard Choi]

I fail to see how Bandon is representative of PNW golf when Chambers isn't.

There are absolutely no other course in PNW like Bandon (other than Trails). Chambers is the closest approximate (no others is really even in discussion).

If he mentioned Sahalee, it would have been at least intellectually consistent.

[Mac Plumart]

I'd have to say the golf courses (or sometimes the clubs) quality defines its place in a region.

If a course is of such a high quality, it will define (or redefine) golf in a region. Bandon being a great example. Augusta being another example. Local/regional courses will seek to emulate many aspects of that course as that is what people in that region think is good.

[Mike_Young]

The marketing, advertising ans PR firms hired by the course determine how a course is perceived in a market and they also control how most golfers view that course even when that golfer doesn't realize it....

[David Davis]

Connor,

Since we are picking on PNW and that's a really specific example I'd point out that PNW is extremely unique. There are not too many states that have everything from coastal links land, coastal mountain ranges, to raw forest land to the high desert of Bend and beyond to the relatively flat and arid surrounding of Eugene, not to mention the Columbia River Gorge and other areas surround the river as it runs through Oregon and Washington. It's also a relatively huge area we are talking about with extremely different flora and fauna, ground composition etc etc.

There is no way you could come up with one or even two types of courses that could define this region in my opinion.

Sure I'd say Bandon Dunes resort is perhaps what Oregonians might like to say typifies it. Though perhaps I'm only talking for myself since it's one of my favorite places and Pacific Dunes I'd love to say defines the region, I just don't know if that's realistic. Same for Chambers in Washington. Arguably as mentioned Sahalee more defines golf and architecture in Washington than Chambers. Though perhaps no longer after the next Open takes place as joe public has all but forgotten about Sahalee while Chambers will leave a different impact and then everyone will be talking about PNW being the home of Links Golf in the USA. This I may agree with and would say it's something the PNW can be extremely proud of.

[Garland Bayley]

Look at all the courses in Scotland. Only a small minority of them are true links courses. Best avoid them because they are not representative of the region. 'nuf said.

Also, have to wonder how golf savy anyone can be that looks at #9 and decides landing the ball in the middle of the green is the thing to do.

[Connor Dougherty]

I fail to see how Bandon is representative of PNW golf when Chambers isn't.

There are absolutely no other course in PNW like Bandon (other than Trails). Chambers is the closest approximate (no others is really even in discussion).

If he mentioned Sahalee, it would have been at least intellectually consistent.

Rich,
I completely agree. That was what I thought was perplexing about his answer.

David also makes a good point. The PNW is incredibly diverse, and its golf courses are hardly similar. The courses in Bend, just from looking at photos, are vastly different than the courses here in Eugene.

I would argue that the golf courses fit into place on a smaller scale, and blanket terms like "PNW Golf" or "Scottish golf" really shouldn't be used when talking about something like this. Bandon, with its four courses, is a microcosm of coastal golf, fitting right into place. For a completely different example, I can't think of a golf course that embodies the feel of its location than Shadow Creek. Las Vegas is the epitome of excess and grandeur, and Shadow fits right into that mold.

[Grant Saunders]

I would argue that the golf courses fit into place on a smaller scale, and blanket terms like "PNW Golf" or "Scottish golf" really shouldn't be used when talking about something like this. Bandon, with its four courses, is a microcosm of coastal golf, fitting right into place. For a completely different example, I can't think of a golf course that embodies the feel of its location than Shadow Creek. Las Vegas is the epitome of excess and grandeur, and Shadow fits right into that mold.

I would agree with the comment that courses should be representative of their immediate landscape and maybe even visible surroundings and that this is a much smaller scale than identifying by region.

Some regions may have a fairly consistent landscape with very little variation in land form or vegetation. Others may have an enormous array of soil types, climates, elevation, vegetation etc which would naturally dictate a corresponding variation in course styles and types.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think a good guide/barometer is the "25 minute drive" test. In the 25 minutes it takes you to drive to a course from your home/hotel, you will see and experience a certain kind of topography, and various types of vegetation, and either a plenitude or scarcity of rivers and ponds and lakes. When you get to the course, if after a few holes you find the same kind of topography and various types of vegetation and either a plentitude or scarcity of water, that course reflects its surrounds. If you don't, it doesn't. It really is that simple, it seems to me. But note: I'm saying that you can't ask for more than that a course "reflects its surrounds". I think asking a course to "define its region" is asking too much.

(And please - do spare me if you can the exception that proves the rule, i.e. "uh, there's no water near my hotel in Bandon, but, like, 25 minutes later and I'm on the course and all I see is the freaking ocean! Are you saying that Pacific Dunes doesn't fit its surrounds?")

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

Connor,

I generally understand what you are getting at,.  The Pacific NW has many streams, mountains, prairie valleys, too. So, taking one dominant feature and saying that is what all courses in the NW should look like is somewhat myopic, but understandable.

In northern MN we had a similar question.  We think of the northern US as evergreen forests, but many areas also had mining.  So, my two woodland courses and one quarry theme course could all fit in as part of the landscape, even if the quarry is a man made (or destructed) landscape.

I guess it just depends on what you take in (i.e. man made elements of cultural landscape) when you define the region. Given all the timber production in the NW, perhaps the most symbolic course would be one in an area stripped of trees, or in new regrowth, rather than fully wooded, old growth timber?

 Jeff, y of mention a few features of Pac NW courses but the one you didn't mention is trees, lots of trees, big trees.....

Chambers Bay has but one, so it's hardly representative of Pac NW courses.   I guess it plays linksy and there are not many other courses in the region where you can say that. 

[Garland Bayley]

But of course the three best courses in WA are pretty much devoid of trees.

The tree choked ones occupy the other end of the spectrum.

[Steve Lang]

  Like Gold Mountain??

[Garland Bayley]

Like Gold Mountain??

Chambers, Wine, Gamble

[Connor Dougherty]

I think a good guide/barometer is the "25 minute drive" test. In the 25 minutes it takes you to drive to a course from your home/hotel, you will see and experience a certain kind of topography, and various types of vegetation, and either a plenitude or scarcity of rivers and ponds and lakes. When you get to the course, if after a few holes you find the same kind of topography and various types of vegetation and either a plentitude or scarcity of water, that course reflects its surrounds. If you don't, it doesn't. It really is that simple, it seems to me. But note: I'm saying that you can't ask for more than that a course "reflects its surrounds". I think asking a course to "define its region" is asking too much.

(And please - do spare me if you can the exception that proves the rule, i.e. "uh, there's no water near my hotel in Bandon, but, like, 25 minutes later and I'm on the course and all I see is the freaking ocean! Are you saying that Pacific Dunes doesn't fit its surrounds?")

Peter

Peter,
Perhaps this is why there's such an objection to Chambers Bay from some for it not being PNW, as nothing within a 25 minute drive really reflects it's surrounds. It is the result of a degraded landscape located on a small portion of land.

We've talked about how we have to localize place a bit, and the best answer may be that the scale changes per location. On the smallest scale, Chambers represents the changing economics of a community and the revitalization of an incredibly barren landscape. As much as it may not visually tie in with its surroundings, it is inextricably tied to its location. The remnants of old buildings, the proximity of the railroad, and the remnants of a few of the contours build on this. A course like, say, Tumble Creek, is tied to a much larger, grander landscape, and has to ultimately look like it fits into its much greater surrounds.

[Dan Herrmann]

I  think I know where your friend is coming from.  Perhaps he should have opined that Chambers Bay isn't representative of the Seattle/Tacoma area.    That is true - it's completely out of character for the Sea-Tac metro area.  Or Portland, for that matter.

I know Portland golf much better than Sea-Tac, but a course like Portland Golf Club, Eastmoreland, or Columbia Edgewater seems to be the type of course that most people would associate with the PNW.   

Bend has its own character, as does the Oregon Coast.  Bandon has its own style, which we all know is world-class.   

So I agree with the 25-mile theory!