When is architectural deception ........ dishonest ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Partrick--

This thread reminds me of one from eight years ago which I started (and in which we had a bunch of back-and-forth discussion) about the 14th at Hidden Creek, whose green is described in the review on this site as follows: " From the tee, the golfer is hard pressed to determine where on this 51 yard (!) deep green the hole actually is." (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27338.0.html)

Reading that thread again now, I'm not sure I entirely agree with my then-16 self, but regardless, I'm struggling to square your objection to the shifted mowing lines in the case of this blind-tee-shotted golf hole with your initial response to me from that thread:

Tim,

The first time I played HC, the deception on # 14 was so good that I thought the bunker at the back of the green, fronted the green.

Why should I have been entitled to know exactly where the hole was located.

That's what your eyes are for, and mine aren't good.

Some golfers want to be spoon fed, shortcutting or undercutting all of the challenges.

I prefer that some responsibility remain on the golfers shoulders, eyes and brains.

Now, I understand that total blindness isn't the driver of the deception on the hole at Hidden Creek, but it seems that after one play, you or your caddie at this course should be able to suss out a spot in the distance or foreground that points to the more important fairway lines: the ones that are out of sight from the tee.

Tim, they're two entirely different situations.

I know where I have to aim, but, alignment is often a tricky issue.
I tend to be a fairly accurate driver of the golf ball, but, being able to know exactly where to aim, from different tees on different days isn't something you just dial in.
In addition, the fairway cants from high left to low right, and the rough juts in low righ.
And, the wind is often in your face exacerbating the problem.

Or, the club could place one or two march stones before the fairway dips out of sight to indicate the unseen fairway lines. I think that would be an interesting feature, but it might be an example of "entitlement" or "spoon-feeding" per your quote above.


That's a little hokey.
What the club should do is mow the fairway line beyond the crest as it appears before the crest.
You'd still have the slope and wind to contend with, but you wouldn't have the rough jutting out into the DZ,  penalizing what appears to be a good drive on a long hole.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

classic you

I do not accept your inability to post your evidence is the reason behind not putting it up.

Jon,

First, I really don't care what you think or accept.
You're really irrelevant concerning this issue.

Secondly, I recently had three guests who played the hole.
I warned them in advance about the treachery that was out of sight, but, they could not overcome the visual signal sent to their eye by the visible fairway lines.
Two drove it into the right rough, while one drove it in the left rough, clearly overcompensating for my warning.

Upon reaching their drives, all commented that the feature was "dicey" at best and definitely disingenuous, architecturallly..
And, they were pre-warned about the exact nature of what awaited them on the other side of the crest.

But, the tactical signal sent to their eye was a strong one, one that's very difficult to overcome.
Especially with a fairway that slopes toward the intruding rough.

I think it is just that your proof does not exist so you should either post it or withdraw your fantasy.

As I stated previously, I really don't care what you think.
But, I'm so certain of the condition's existance that I'm willing to give you good odds on the accuracy of my description.
We can each mail a cashier's check to Ran, made out to each other, for him to hold.
Then, you pick an individual to represent your interests, I'll pick one for my interests and we'll have them pick a third (tie breaker).
Name your price, big shot.

Just as I thought Patrick, you turned out to be just a gas bag. The reason you do not care what I think about your unproven and now dubious point is because you cannot prove it. If you could prove it you would have certainly gleefully posted the evidence. What a flake even coming out with a bet on something you refuse to prove

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

Anyone and everyone who's played the hole/s understands the disconnect between the tactical signal sent to the golfer's eye as they stand on the tee and the deceptive features that lie beyond the crest.

My life and my time are not dedicated to satisfying your whims on demand.

I don't care what you think because you're irrelevant to me.

When I get around to it, I'll photo the view from the tee and from the green looking back to the crest.

And don't forget, the betting window will remain perpetually open for you.

Basically it's a put up or shut up proposition for you.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

Anyone and everyone who's played the hole/s understands the disconnect between the tactical signal sent to the golfer's eye as they stand on the tee and the deceptive features that lie beyond the crest.
That is not what is being challenged here so irrelevant.

My life and my time are not dedicated to satisfying your whims on demand.

I don't care what you think because you're irrelevant to me.
Yet I still get a rise out of you Patrick so not really true

When I get around to it, I'll photo the view from the tee and from the green looking back to the crest.
But you said you cannot post photos so which is true and which is not

And don't forget, the betting window will remain perpetually open for you.
Keep it open Patrick if that makes you happy but I am certainly not interested in any bet with the likes of you

Basically it's a put up or shut up proposition for you.

Patrick, it is up to you to post the required evidence or be shown for the type of person you obviously are, a lot of noise but no substance

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

Before posting the evidence that will make you look like a complete fool, and a blowhard, a few questions.

Are you a righty or a lefty ,

Do your drives usually fade, draw or go straight

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

Where'd you go ?

Some answers please.


Jon,

Before posting the evidence that will make you look like a complete fool, and a blowhard, a few questions.

Are you a righty or a lefty ,

Do your drives usually fade, draw or go straight

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

I'm about to post the photos, but, won't do so until you answer the simple questions I posed.

Please answer them and I'll have the photos posted.

Thanks

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

your questions are irrelevant to the discussion but right handed and shape changes daily

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

your questions are irrelevant to the discussion but right handed and shape changes daily[.

Jon,

So you're wild and unpredictable off the tee.

What's your handicap

How do you know the questions are irrelevant in the context of the play of this hole ? 
Especially since you've never seen the hole.

The first photo will be posted shortly.

Jon

[Bill Brightly]

Pat asked me to post this photo:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

Please tell us where you'd aim your tee shot.

You indicated that there was no pattern to your tee shots, that your typical drive does not, fade, draw or go straight, that it's random on a daily basis.

So, tell us,, where would you aim, understanding that I've already fed you more than ample information regarding this hole.

[Jim Franklin]

A course I play has this exact situation on the 17th hole.   A blind tee shot to an offset fairway with a pond jutting into the LZ about 240 yards out on the left.   Then someone had the great idea to route the cart path between the light rough and the pond.  So you can hit a slight draw to the left center of the fairway, bounce once or twice, hit the cart path and bounce in the pond.  You end up searching for a ball that you think was in the fairway and is now probably in the pond, but isn't known or virtually certain.  If you could see it happen it would piss you off but least you can drop up by the pond, however since it's a blind shot it can leave a bad impression with one hole to go.  I've seen it happen to the group behind us and it can really back up play.  

So yes, I feel it is dishonest and it does mess with you psychologically in the few holes leading up to it and even after your round.  In this case, even local knowledge is only good for saying "No it's not lost it probably bounced in the pond."  At least give me some rough to slow down a ball that lands in the fairway, as I have no problem with a bad swing resulting in a big hook ending up in the pond.
 
Definitely seems like a gimmicky hole to me.

What course is this?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I don't think it's an architectural issue.

The fairway lines as crafted by the architect have been intentionally moved vis a vis maintenance practices

Patrick,

how do you know this.

Can you post the proof that you must possess about the architect's original intentions.

His original plans and notes on the hole would be good so if you can post these to back up you argument that would be great

Jon,

How do I know this ?

I know it because I've been playing the course for about sixty (60) years and have the architects original schematic of the course along with his detailed hole drawings.

The shifting of the fairway lines is a more recent occurrence and not a product of the architect's original design.

Hope that helps

Patrick,

I have never disputed the deception caused by the blindness of the tee shot nor requested anything to do with this. What I was interested in was your claim to have evidence that this was not part of the GCA's original concept. I requested you posted this proof you claim to have. The photo posted, nice though it is, is of no interest to me in this respect. I await the posting of the plans you claim have though, such documents are always fascinating.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

You need to communicate with Bob Huntley before you challenge me again.

I will post more photos of this hole, taken from the crest of the hill, from the green looking back and from afar looking back, just so that you can see the pronounced "bulge" in the right rough that intrudes into the DZ on a fairway that's sloped strongly, from high left to low right.

Then, I will have a photo of Donald Ross's field drawing showing the rough/fairway line as about as straight as you can make it.

In other words, the photographic evidence will confirm everything I stated and at the same time it will prove you a fool.

[Tim Gavrich]

Judging by that photo, it seems that the bunker serves as a clue as to which side the player should favor off the tee. After all, it does seem pretty easily carryable, which makes me think it serves as more of a marker. Therefore, if you arrived on that tee with no knowledge of what the fairway does or does not do over the rise, Ross seems to be indicating with that bunker that "challenging" (i.e. driving it over some part of) the bunker may well be the way to go.

It's not a bad assumption that that bunker is protecting *something*, is it?

Furthermore, the visible fairway slopes from left to right, so that absent any certainty as to whether the fairway continues straight ahead, it's reasonable to assume that the fairway beyond the horizon does the same. Certainly these assumptions can be bad at times, but it seems a good starting point for the one time a golfer will play this hole without having played it before.

Looking at the picture, it seems there's enough evidence to suggest that the uninitiated golfer should try and work a right-to-left tee shot toward the left edge of the visible fairway.

Patrick, will a tee shot like I've described above hold the fairway as it's currently mowed?

[Brent Hutto]

I haven't read the whole thread (what a mess) but are we just talking about a blind tee shot where someone can not guess the correct line the first time he plays the hole?

[JESII]

Yes...and Jon Wiggets poor driving...

[Brent Hutto]

Yes...

Good grief.

and Jon Wiggets poor driving...

Ah, well at least that adds a bit of pertinence to the thread.

P.S. Does anyone have historical evidence for whether C.B. Macdonald drove the ball straighter than Jon Wigget? That would seem a prime subject for discussion once this thread dies a merciful death.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Judging by that photo, it seems that the bunker serves as a clue as to which side the player should favor off the tee. After all, it does seem pretty easily carryable, which makes me think it serves as more of a marker. Therefore, if you arrived on that tee with no knowledge of what the fairway does or does not do over the rise, Ross seems to be indicating with that bunker that "challenging" (i.e. driving it over some part of) the bunker may well be the way to go.

Tim,

That's not an unreasonable deduction, but, I wonder how many golfers reach that conclusion, especially with the left side trees so close to the line of the bunker.

It's not a bad assumption that that bunker is protecting *something*, is it?

NO

Furthermore, the visible fairway slopes from left to right, so that absent any certainty as to whether the fairway continues straight ahead, it's reasonable to assume that the fairway beyond the horizon does the same. Certainly these assumptions can be bad at times, but it seems a good starting point for the one time a golfer will play this hole without having played it before.

Another good observation.
The problem is that the slope gets more severe as you go over the crest.

Looking at the picture, it seems there's enough evidence to suggest that the uninitiated golfer should try and work a right-to-left tee shot toward the left edge of the visible fairway.

Patrick, will a tee shot like I've described above hold the fairway as it's currently mowed?

Tim, do you see the tall tree on the horizon ?
On my last play I hit my drive right at it, as I always try to do.
I had a nice draw on my drive.
I will have Bill Brightly post a photo of where my drive ended up.
In the fairway, but, not by much

[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't read the whole thread (what a mess) but are we just talking about a blind tee shot where someone can not guess the correct line the first time he plays the hole?

Brent,

Tell you what I'll do.
If  you're in the neighborhood, you'll be my guest and you can play the hole 13 times.

The first time is for you to absorb all the information you need.

The next 12 times we're betting on your ability to hit the fairway, which is generous rather than narrow.

[Tim Gavrich]

Judging by that photo, it seems that the bunker serves as a clue as to which side the player should favor off the tee. After all, it does seem pretty easily carryable, which makes me think it serves as more of a marker. Therefore, if you arrived on that tee with no knowledge of what the fairway does or does not do over the rise, Ross seems to be indicating with that bunker that "challenging" (i.e. driving it over some part of) the bunker may well be the way to go.

Tim,

That's not an unreasonable deduction, but, I wonder how many golfers reach that conclusion, especially with the left side trees so close to the line of the bunker.

It's not a bad assumption that that bunker is protecting *something*, is it?

NO

Furthermore, the visible fairway slopes from left to right, so that absent any certainty as to whether the fairway continues straight ahead, it's reasonable to assume that the fairway beyond the horizon does the same. Certainly these assumptions can be bad at times, but it seems a good starting point for the one time a golfer will play this hole without having played it before.

Another good observation.
The problem is that the slope gets more severe as you go over the crest.

Looking at the picture, it seems there's enough evidence to suggest that the uninitiated golfer should try and work a right-to-left tee shot toward the left edge of the visible fairway.

Patrick, will a tee shot like I've described above hold the fairway as it's currently mowed?

Tim, do you see the tall tree on the horizon ?
On my last play I hit my drive right at it, as I always try to do.
I had a nice draw on my drive.
I will have Bill Brightly post a photo of where my drive ended up.
In the fairway, but, not by much

Patrick--

That tree seems a very reasonable aiming spot. I'm starting to struggle to see the offense of the hole if a drawn drive that goes at that tree ends up in the fairway.

Say that instead of the tall tree, you aimed about a step inside the bunker, with the same draw. Would a tee shot on that line end up in the rough left of the fairway? That seems unlikely, given the way you say the fairway jukes left beyond the crest, and is generous.

Would trimming back the trees on that left side make it more sensible, in your view, to reasonably decide to aim farther left that it appears necessary off the tee?

Re: your most recent tee ball on the hole, if you were to place your ball five or ten yards (wherever you think the right edge of the fairway ought to be) farther to the right, into that "bulge" of rough, would that yield a substantially better angle into the green than is available currently?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone have historical evidence for whether C.B. Macdonald drove the ball straighter than Jon Wigget?

I don't know, has Jon Wigget won any U.S. Amateurs ?

[Bill Brightly]

Here is the Joe Bausch photo collection from Mountain Ridge. I believe these are 5 years old, but there are lots of good photos of Hole #2.

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/MountainRidge/pages/page_20.html

[Eric Hammerbacher]

A course I play has this exact situation on the 17th hole.   A blind tee shot to an offset fairway with a pond jutting into the LZ about 240 yards out on the left.   Then someone had the great idea to route the cart path between the light rough and the pond.  So you can hit a slight draw to the left center of the fairway, bounce once or twice, hit the cart path and bounce in the pond.  You end up searching for a ball that you think was in the fairway and is now probably in the pond, but isn't known or virtually certain.  If you could see it happen it would piss you off but least you can drop up by the pond, however since it's a blind shot it can leave a bad impression with one hole to go.  I've seen it happen to the group behind us and it can really back up play.  

So yes, I feel it is dishonest and it does mess with you psychologically in the few holes leading up to it and even after your round.  In this case, even local knowledge is only good for saying "No it's not lost it probably bounced in the pond."  At least give me some rough to slow down a ball that lands in the fairway, as I have no problem with a bad swing resulting in a big hook ending up in the pond.
 
Definitely seems like a gimmicky hole to me.

What course is this?

Jim- Greystone, hole #17

[Brent Hutto]

So is this a view from up near the green, looking backwards toward the same ridge that makes for a blind shot off the tee?



In which case this is the view from on top of the ridge, looking toward the green.