Allan Ferguson Comments On Green Fees In Scotland

[David_Tepper]

From his newest e-mail:

"Green Fees Through the Proverbial Roof

Read it and weep (for Scottish golf). High season 2015 visitor rates: Turnberry - £250, Kingsbarns - £226, Trump Int'l - £215, Muirfield - £210, Royal Troon - £205; Castle Stuart - £180. I don't know a single, sensible Scot who would pay these kinds of rates for a round of golf. My hope is that visitors will vote with their feet and remember Nancy Reagan's anti-drug slogan, "Just say NO"—and send them an email telling them why you aren't playing their overpriced courses."

"After a distress sale to new owners in Oct 2014, Fairmont St. Andrews has  reduced green fees on their Torrance and Kittocks courses. They're £80 all week—in step with St. Andrews' New and Jubilee courses and not much more than one-third the cost of Kingsbarns. These are excellent courses with views from high ground over St. Andrews Bay. Their twilight rate of £40 is one of the best values, not only in Fife but in all of Scotland."

[David Stamm]

Doesn't surprise me in the least.  Muirfield is the only one I care about on that list.

[JJShanley]

I vaguely recall reading that HCEG offers discounted fourball rates to Scottish-based golfers with an SGU affiliation.  They may limit the offer to April and October.

But as Mr. Stamm says, that's the only of the courses listed I would consider playing at those fees.

[Jon Wiggett]

What's his connection to Fairmont I wonder. If he really wants to push courses that offer reasonably priced GFs then any of the hundreds of courses in the less than £50 range would surely be more suitable. Fairmont courses are okay but over priced at £80 IMO.

Jon

[David_Tepper]

Jon -

I seriously doubt Allan F. has any affiliation at all with the Fairmont.

http://www.fergusongolf.com/

DT

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

whilst I agree with his £40 twilight rate point (very good value) I do not find £80 such good value and I am always suspicious of waxing lyrical. Been inline with the overpriced Jubilee and New Courses is hardly good value.

Jon

[Bill_McBride]

Doesn't surprise me in the least.  Muirfield is the only one I care about on that list.

I want to play Castle Stuart but otherwise agree. 

[Sean_A]

Of course Ferguson is correct, but given the number of golfers who want to visit these courses I would do the same thing.  Raise fees and lower the number of visitors...its better business for the club and easier on the course.  I am amazed that any top links club offers a winter rate.  That said, I am only interested (not completely sold) in playing Kingsbarns and CS if I have to pay top whack. 

I have a feeling the age noblesse oblige is finished 

Ciao

[Niall C]

The advantage of being a local is that you don't generally pay these rates. I'm not necessarily saying that all these courses have "local" rates but that as a local you get a chance to take advantage of hospitality and promotions when they become available.

For example I've played both CS and KB half a dozen times and never paid more than £40 a go. Likewise Muirfield which I got on a winter rate (can't recall what it was but certainly nowhere near the fees suggested in the OP). Turnberry - again I've always played as a guest of a member or as a corporate guest. Troon - always as a guest of a member. TOC is the only one I've paid the going rate.

I doubt I'm at all unusual for Scottish golf. "Local" golfers simply have the opportunioty to pick their moments as it were, so I suspect Mr Fergussons comments are aimed squarely at the travelling golfer.

Niall

ps. agree with the comments on the St Andrews Bay courses which I both enjoy and think have a lot of good stuff going for them, but then I've never paid more than £25 a round for them.

[jeffwarne]

So many other great, alternative choices that those rates hardly seem relevant.
It's good to quarantine the  a$$hats-keeps 'em off the authentic places.
More power to them if people want to pay it.

Not really that different here with the likes of Kiowah, Pinehurst, Doral,(it's just that there aren't as many good/great nearby accessible affordable options-well maybe near Pinehurst)

[Duncan Cheslett]

I don't really see the problem. It's just the market functioning according to the law of Supply and Demand. If a club can attract sufficient visitors at £200 a round why on earth would they advertise prices of less than that?

It also happens at the top ranked courses local to me. Birkdale, Hoylake, and Lytham are similarly priced and consequently most people would only consider a visit as a once in a lifetime experience, if at all.

There is plenty of good golf at lesser prices. At least in the UK it is possible to play almost anywhere if you can stump up the green fee.

[BCowan]

So many other great, alternative choices that those rates hardly seem relevant.
It's good to quarantine the  a$$hats-keeps 'em off the authentic places.
More power to them if people want to pay it.

Not really that different here with the likes of Kiowah, Pinehurst, Doral,(it's just that there aren't as many good/great nearby accessible affordable options-well maybe near Pinehurst)

+1, When and If i go across the pond, the last thing i want to do is play golf with Americans at over priced tracks.  Playing uncluttered gems is the goal for me.  

''I don't know a single, sensible Scot who would pay these kinds of rates for a round of golf.''
Love this

[Niall C]

Just checked the Royal Troon website and the greenfee of £205 quoted by Fergusson is for a round on the Championship course AND a round on the MacKenzie designed Portland course. A round on the Championship course alone is £150.

Now some may say that is still over priced and I'd probably agree but I think Fergusson should have been more honest. I haven't checked the other green fees quoted to see what else is included but if Troon is anything to go by those headline figures probably don't tell the whole story.

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Just checked the Royal Troon website and the greenfee of £205 quoted by Fergusson is for a round on the Championship course AND a round on the MacKenzie designed Portland course. A round on the Championship course alone is £150.

Now some may say that is still over priced and I'd probably agree but I think Fergusson should have been more honest. I haven't checked the other green fees quoted to see what else is included but if Troon is anything to go by those headline figures probably don't tell the whole story.

Niall

The rate for both courses used to include lunch. Their website goes to great pains to explain that lunch is no longer included but available for purchase. Add £25.

[David_Tepper]

"Just checked the Royal Troon website and the greenfee of £205 quoted by Fergusson is for a round on the Championship course AND a round on the MacKenzie designed Portland course. A round on the Championship course alone is £150."

Niall -

If I am reading the Royal Troon website correctly, it appears that paying the 150 pound green fee to play only the Championship course is available as an option just for a brief period, from 14 September to 8 October. Visitors will have to pay the 205 pound rate, as correctly stated by Mr. Ferguson, over most of the golfing season.

http://www.royaltroon.co.uk/visitors/green-fees

DT

[Niall C]

David/Mike,

I don't know about you guys but when I talk about green fees I generally mean the cost of playing the course and not including lunch or extra round of golf on another course, in that respect Mr Fergusson was still misleading. Giving ahead line rate ie. peak season rate, is one thing but throwing in the extras and implying that the cost is just for the course (which is what I think he did) is deceitful in my opinion.

For instance how many of the other green fees quoted include extras ?

Niall 

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

The green fee rate Ferguson quoted is 205 pounds, which is the rate as shown on the Royal Troon website for golf only. Granted, it is for one round on each of the two courses. Except for the 3 weeks at the end of the season, it is the only way one can get to play the Championship course at Troon. Lunch has nothing to do with it and a round thrown in on the Portland course has just a bit more than nothing to do with it. We both know likely 9 of 10 visitors to Troon are there to play the Championship course and have no intention of playing the Portland course.  

Mr. Ferguson also did not mention the little goodie bag you get with your green fee included at Castle Stuart, with tees, a course guide and a bag tag (plus range balls, use of a trolley and a bottle of water after the 12th hole!). Is that package more or less relevant than a round on the Portland?   
   
DT

[astavrides]

At least a visitor can play 95 of the top 100 courses in GB&I.  (I'm guessing at the number). Whereas in the US it is only like 15 out of 100.

[John Kavanaugh]

At least a visitor can play 95 of the top 100 courses in GB&I.  (I'm guessing at the number). Whereas in the US it is only like 15 out of 100.

Funny, I just counted 73 courses out of the GD top 100 that a visitor from Europe can play by simply writing a letter to the club in question.

I love this article as it exposes the ugly truth behind GB&I "access".  At least to play the great courses of the U.S. you don't have to be rich, you just need to be interesting.

[Brent Hutto]

To my mind, there's not a one-to-one mapping between "resort", "private" and "public" golf in USA and any particular types of courses in the UK.

There are places like Gleneagles and Turnberry in Scotland that are resorts in the same sense as Pebble Beach or Kiawah in USA. But when an overseas golf tourist visits the UK he views a day at Muirfield or Walton Heath pretty much exactly the same as a visit to Turnberry, except for a few oddball rules about wearing jackets or using mobile phones or whatever.

[Sean_A]

Brent

I definitely think of private and public courses as quite different from each other.  Some of it has to do with the much higher probability of playing a game in a quicker, more enjoyable fashion.  But I would also say there is a much higher likelihood of a more interesting clubhouse atmosphere with some history to explore.  Generally, I prefer privates to publics in the UK.  That said, the distinction between the two is most evident in England where there are a lot more old-line traditional clubs remaining than in Scotland and Ireland combined.  It is interesting that a big selling point of a day at Muirfield is a lunch which presumably is meant to resemble a typical club lunch or match lunch.  Prestwick also offers this experience for the visitor eating around the Long Table.  Of course, these are two of the most historic clubs in Scotland and they are using that as a marketing tool.  In England, they haven't quite caught up in the tourist sweepstakes other than the odd 2ball club now offering 4ball times on certain days.

Ciao

[Andrew Buck]

At least a visitor can play 95 of the top 100 courses in GB&I.  (I'm guessing at the number). Whereas in the US it is only like 15 out of 100.

Funny, I just counted 73 courses out of the GD top 100 that a visitor from Europe can play by simply writing a letter to the club in question.

I love this article as it exposes the ugly truth behind GB&I "access".  At least to play the great courses of the U.S. you don't have to be rich, you just need to be interesting.

Thankfully you're both, or so you remind us.   

[astavrides]

At least a visitor can play 95 of the top 100 courses in GB&I.  (I'm guessing at the number). Whereas in the US it is only like 15 out of 100.

Funny, I just counted 73 courses out of the GD top 100 that a visitor from Europe can play by simply writing a letter to the club in question.

I love this article as it exposes the ugly truth behind GB&I "access".  At least to play the great courses of the U.S. you don't have to be rich, you just need to be interesting.

Unfortunately, I'm not from Europe and am not good at faking an accent.

[John Kavanaugh]

We have all seen it, the farther you live from a course the easier it is to access.

[David_Tepper]

"Funny, I just counted 73 courses out of the GD top 100 that a visitor from Europe can play by simply writing a letter to the club in question."

Alex S. -

I would not worry about your ability to fake an accent too much as the above comment is utter nonsense.

DT