Is Course Contraction The Key To Recovery?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don't know if any of you saw it in the most current edition of Golfweek, but our own Brad Klein writes a VERY good article on the subject of Golf Courses and the current economy.

I don't have the time to do it today, but I will try to transcribe the article later. However that can't prevent us from having some discussion regarding the current state of golf courses and their place in the market place.

For me, Brad's article is pretty enlightening, because I can think of about ten courses here in SoCal alone that would be better served to be housing because of their extremity of location and their severity of site--they are horrible golf courses that are unplayable to most in their severity and their cost. In fact, I could picture Lost Canyons getting rid of the Shadow Course or Tijera Rejada, completely being turned back into a hillside avocado orchard. There are more. Many many more.

What are some of the courses in your area that could be contracted?

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmm...

I'm having a hard time with this premise and I haven't seen the GW artilcle.  I'm sure Brad gives good reasons why contraction is wise but as I fight for tee-times, I remain dubious that less courses would be a good thing.  Hell, I want more, so the massive numbers of players are spread out!

But that also might be because I live in the world's worst situation in terms of courses per capita.

So no, I can't think of any around here that ought to be contracted, however horrid some many be from an architectural sense... I'd even say that one of the worst courses on the planet - The Bridges at Gale Ranch - ought not to be plowed under.  Not unless they're going to replace it with a decent course, anyway....

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Your hitting on exactly what a large part of the problem is--not enough playable and affordable courses.

The Bridges should be left for dead.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

I haven't seen the Brad Klein article, but it does bring to mind the NY Times article a few years back. This article focused on several problems facing the industry, including:

 - too many golf courses (in certain markets)
 - far too much money spent building golf courses
 - too many courses that were too difficult to play

I'll show show sympathy to Tom Huckaby and argue that much depends on where you live. In places like NY Metro and SF, there isn't much in the way of affordable golf and probably won't ever be. Conversely, a place like Northeast Ohio is the home of many decent Mom and Pops that you can enjoy playing for $20-30. No, not great architecture, but for the working man, pretty darn good.

On the difficulty question, there was a quote in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer that I enjoyed: "professional golf isn't real......those guys are aliens......the real golfers are hacks that never master the game".

Let me also repeat mention of an Arthur Spring project in Ireland I saw early this year. Castle Island would not interest you from a purely architecture point of view. But, there is something impressive about the entire project from the point of view of 400 members who created the club. They got up and running for about two million euros, no debt and a course that provides ample challenge for almost every member.

The industry here might be able to learn something.

[John_Conley]

Hucks:

You wouldn't have that problem if you moved.

Orlando, Myrtle Beach, and the Twin Cities are three examples I know of where golf can be played at decent courses for a reasonable price.  Sorry if you live in the Bay Area.  Your experience is less typical.

I haven't yet seen Brad's article.  I think I got my GW Friday.

[THuckaby2]

OK, so our area is the exception, not the rule.  I guess I get that.  It's just such a non-issue here that it's hard to get a grasp on... We need MORE courses, not less, of all types.  Close down the awful Bridges and that just emboldens the few other courses near there to charge more....

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tim, A lot of that might mean that the California Effect has hit Cleveland--thankfully, but it has hit in certain areas of Philadelphia, and others--including the Bay area. Tom will hate me for saying this, but I saw from the freeway while recently leaving San Jose, what I think is Cinnabar Hills, and that looked to me to be hideous in regards to taste. (At least that paticular golf hole)

I don't know if Cinnebar is a financial success or not or how it places itself on the other 26 holes around the course, but the point is that I don't think it is what you would call affordable, and seeing a hole like that, makes me question if its playable too. Hopefully Tom H will weigh-in on this more because I know he likes Cinnebar Hills, but I would like to know how does it play for a 24 handicapper?

[JohnV]

Tom, are you really sure you can't get tee times there?  Or is it that you just can't get them at the times you want them?  I never had a problem getting on any course in the Santa Cruz area during the year I was there.  Sure, on the weekend it might be a tougher, but, assuming there wasn't an outing, I could go out to Pajaro during the week and tee off within 20 minutes of arriving, frequently by myself.

Courses can't survive just on weekend play.

George Pazin and I teed off at 1PM yesterday at my home course and except for two juniors who went right in front of us, we had nobody within 3 holes of us in front of back the rest of the day.  Of course, it was opening day for the Steelers.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

As you generally know, if one starts from 10 miles east of my house and drives to 10 miles west of it, one passes the following NLE courses:  Dunfermline Golf Club (original); Inverkeithing; Aberdour (original); Burntisland (original) and Kinghorn (9 holes taken from WWII and never returned).  These are only the ones I know about and can actually see!   There may be more.

There is no more wrong to a golf course being plowed up for housing or farmland than there is farmland being plowed up for a golf course.  Ob la di, Ob la da, ob la  daaah, lad di dah di life goes on.

There are plausible indications (see Rostow) that the world's population will peak in about 2050 at about 9 billion and then go into rapid decline (much mirroring the circumstances of Western Europe over the past 100 years).  When that happens, we can uproot the Bridges d'antan (which will probably be ex-classics by then and eulogized by Daniel Wexler in volume 17 of "Missing Links"), regrass them and everything will be hunky dory.

Stay healthy and we will see it all.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

"Close down the awful Bridges and that just emboldens the few other courses near there to charge more....

How do you figure? I would think that if the word was out that they were walking away from a golf course from a pure financial stance, I would think it would spell out to others that the Game is in serious shape in that area, and that they have to remain affordable to remain propserous?

[ForkaB]

Tommy

If you saw Cinnabar Hills from the freeway you have super telescopic X-ray vision.  It is a fine 27-hole layout that you should play next time you are visiting Hucksterland.  I'll stand by an old provocative post I made (Moi!?) that it is not measurably better (or worse) than Pasatiempo.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rcih,
Very well put, and I can't remember or not if I did tell you that I did find parts of the old Dumfermline that very same day I saw Pitreavie.

And yes, Life does go on and as Spock would say......"Be well and prosper."

[Tommy_Naccarato]

OK, then I have that course wrong, bt there is a course on the hill going south on the 101 which looks like a Austiran ski jump.

Let me research this one.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rcih,
I can't seem to find it on Mapquest, but maybe Tom might know which course I'm talking about. It's high on the left hand side as your going South on 101. For some unkninw reason, I thought that was the area Cinnebar Hills was loacted.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

You were probably looking at "The Institute", of which I can say nothing, lest some of TE Paul's CIA colleagues try to terminate me with extreme prejudice.........

[ForkaB]

Tommy

See my previous post.  Do you REALLY think that the powers that be show everything that exists on non-classified satellite photos?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, Thank you for pointing out to me how naively I look at things!

[THuckaby2]

So many questions...

1. Directly south of San Jose off of 101, the only course you can see clearly would be Coyote Creek, a Nicklaus design that I frequent, in fact a course that Rich, Gib and I once played together (one of the courses anyway - there are two there).  The courses have been discussed ad nauseam here already, so I won't get into it again.  BUT.. this might not be what Tommy's talking about, because the vast majority of what you see would be on the RIGHT as you go south.. there are a few hilly holes on the left though, so maybe this is it.  No way can you see Cinnabar - it's behind some hills.  You CAN see a hole or two of The Institute, but it's pretty far off the freeway and all you can see are green and white patches, really.  If Tommy can assess a course based on THAT, well... his powers go beyond Emperor status!

2. Re my thought about other courses charging more if The Bridges closes down, it just comes down to supply and demand... Again, we may well be a very unique circumstance here, with demand so far exceeding supply.  Make that even more out of whack and why not charge more?  In any case it's a bad hypothetical, because no courses are looking like they're gonna close down here... not to my knowledge anyway... Oh, some are hurting in this down economy - like Cinnabar Hills - but they're far from being in dire straits.

3. JV - weekend times are a bitch no matter what, just about anywhere... weekdays are even very tough... In this down economy though, an interesting effect has occurred in that one can now easily get times any time at the expensive ones... like Cinnabar, which is a ghost town on weekends... They survive through tournament play, which they get a lot of.

4. Re Cinnabar's quality, that too has been discussed ad nauseam here.  Rich puts it up with Pasa, I think that's stretching things but I do like the course in general.  It's playable for all handicaps if they choose the right tees, in any case.  No, what makes that a ghost town is the COST - it has nothing to do whatsoever with the design.  When it first opened and it was $50, it was packed constantly.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, I know Coyote Creek and its old sister course-Riverside.

And I'm commenting on what this other course looks like from the freeway, on the side of a rather large hill. Not much different then Tiera Rejada #10, that is unless you like golf holes going striaght up the side of a mountain.

It's probably the Institute, which from the sounds of it, I won't be playing anyway.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

Coyote Creek has two courses, one of which covers the land that used to be Riverside - they call that the Valley Course.  The other takes up some land mostly to the south of the old Riverside, but also on the other side of the freeway (on the left going south)... that is called the Tournament course and it does have one hole, visible from the freeway, that is very downhill.

From the freeway, one can really see nothing of The Institute except patches of green grass and white bunkers.  It is literally impossible to make out any golf holes, just because it is so far away.  What one sees is on the side of a hill... but to me the corridors that one can make out look to be traversing the hill, not going up and down.

So now I am at a loss as to the course of which you speak.  I guess it might be The Institute, but man you have some eyes if so.

You can see part of Cordevalle from the freeway, but it would be on the right going south... what you see is actually the top of the driving range, but it does look from afar like a very hilly, straight up the mountain golf hole...

Maybe you were on I-680, east and north of San Jose?  From there one can see a VERY uphill hole at a course called Summitpointe... that fits your description better than anything one can see from 101....

This is bugging me - I want to figure it out!  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, I'm talking to my cousin as we speak, and he was with me when I pointed it out to him, "Look at that!" It was left on going up a hill, and it was without doubt the 101. There was little doubt to us that it was a golf course because it had crushed white marble bunkers and you could partially see the falg waving at the top.

I'm baffled too, because I know that area somewhat, but going on Maquest, I'm finding nothing that even looks close. Thats what is making me think it is the Institute, because there really isn't supposed to be a golf course there correct? (or something like that)

I'll go back to Mapquest some more.

[John Foley]

I think Tommy's refereing to Silver Creek. Saw the same thing a few months ago.

[THuckaby2]

If you can see a flag on THE INSTITUTE looking from 101, then you have vision that would make Superman proud.  It is just way too far away to make out any flags, let alone greens.  You can see green patches and very white bunkers, but no way can you see a flag.  And nothing you can see on it fits the profile of a hole going up or down a mountain in any case...

I'm thinking it's Cordevalle, but that would be on the right going south.  Off in the distance one can see patches of green, a bunker, and a flag, all at the top of the hill... It looks like a very severe golf hole indeed, but it really is a target green at the top of the driving range.

If it is on the left going south, and it's not Coyote Creek, then really the only possibility is The Institute.  No way that appears on Mapquest, and yes it can be seen and one can definitely make it out as a golf course.  It is just so far away, making out any particular holes seems impossible to me, and again, there aren't any that fit the profile of going up and down the hill... Not that I can see from the freeway, anyway!

TH

[Mike Benham]

Tommy and Tom,

It is The Institute that you speak of ...

Go back to Tommy's original post and mentions heading south on 101 and on the left side, that would the east side ...

It is on MapQuest ....

Mike

[THuckaby2]

AHA!

Wait a second... no, it's not The Institute, and it's not Silver Creek, but very close to the latter geographically... It's actually a strange green from a new course, which I can't remember the name of now... It's a housing development course, supposed to be a high-end public CCFAD type, and it's quite close to the 101...  Yep, on the left going south, actually in the city of San Jose.

Yep, this is it.  Looks damn strange to me also.  But I also look forward to it opening - however much it sucks - and who knows if it will - we need another course!

The course isn't open yet, but that part has been visible as a golf hole for about 6 monhts.

And btw, since you have seen this Tommy, that means you were here quite recently and didn't tell me.  I shall get over the shame of you ducking me once again.  

TH