Raising the minimum wage in the golf industry

[Jeff Taylor]

Understood and thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.

Lower the corporate tax rate, the highest in the industrialized world, and businesses could afford to raise the minimum wage

[Jeff Taylor]

Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.

Lower the corporate tax rate, the highest in the industrialized world, and businesses could afford to raise the minimum wage

As a low and flat tax guy, could and would are very different things. How would you use that money in your business? It's a rhetorical question of course.

[Gary Sato]

I don't think Gary Sato's intent is to single out the golf industry, but rather to discuss the issue within the context of the golf business.   

Thank you and its exactly my point.  Like the food service industry, the golf industry and been silent on this issue.  I thing the golf industry should be a leader and not a follower. 

As I said earlier, this issue divides people much like many other national issues. 

[John Kirk]

After adding and removing the Peanuts cartoon twice, I've decided I shouldn't stir the pot any further.

But it was a funny cartoon!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.

Lower the corporate tax rate, the highest in the industrialized world, and businesses could afford to raise the minimum wage

Thanks for that.

John Kirk,

Have someone explain the difference between Corporate tax rates and individual tax rates.

Corporations create jobs.

Try starting a corporation and creating jobs.

It's not so easy.

You and your ilk want to continue to burden corporations.

Then you and your ilk wonder why all the jobs have gone and continue to go overseas

Mike Young's question is the critical question.
Which side of the check do you sign, the front or the back ?

Karl Marx's attempt to tax the rich in order to make the poor their equal failed miserably.
Are you suggesting that we revert to that form of social engineering vis a vis taxation ?

.

[John Kirk]

Dangit, Patrick, you're on this thread like a hawk.  I had that cartoon up there for no more than 2 minutes.

You know damn well the politics of taxation and globalization are far more complicated than your simple paragraph response.  However, blaming people of my "ilk" for offshoring jobs is a major stretch.  Furthermore, in the context of this thread, nobody is offshoring golf course maintenance jobs to foreign countries.

I made a simple, balanced analysis showing the magnitude of the finances involved.  Try looking at both sides of an issue, and have a sense of humor.

[Jeff Taylor]

"I thing the golf industry should be a leader and not a follower."

Posting reluctantly. I tend to believe that industries don't act as if they are a single unit. McDonalds is only one player in fast food and could be seen as acting to thwart pending NLRB action more than they are acting benevolently towards minimum wage workers. Walmart understand PR as well as anyone and can afford to pay more. Will positive PR pay off more than the cost of increased wages? Probably so. Other companies and industries may not have that luxury.
Leading the way for higher wages for relatively unskilled labor means leading the way for less affordable golf. Fair trade?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff & John,

What many seem to forget is that MacDonald's and Walmart are FOR PROFIT companies.

Most private golf clubs are not.

John, despite my desire, I don't have the time to expand my post beyond brief paragraphs.

Don't be so sure that the equipment isn't being manufactured offshore.

If a club's expenses go higher, so do their dues
The higher the dues go the harder it is for a club to attract and retain members.

With fewer members the dues are higher and the club has a more difficult time, financially.
Soon the death spiral sets in

And you and Gary really don't care because it's not your club and it's not your money.

Based upon the previous calculation, an additional $ 120,000 in expenses with a club with 240 members represents a $ 500 increase in dues.

And that's just for the green crew.
Now let's add the same or double the cost for the rest of the club's staff.

That's an additional $ 1,000 to $ 1,500 in annual dues.

And that's just the increase in labor.

How about health insurance increases, real estate tax increases.

Now you're at $ 2,000 to $ 2,500 in annual dues increases.

That will drive members out resulting in even higher dues for those who remain

Not so simple is it

[John Kirk]

Hi Jeff, and the doggedly tenacious Pat Mucci,

No question that the underlying finances are more complicated than I presented.  They are more complicated than you presented, too.  I'm not sure that staff expenditures, or real estate tax increases are significant.  On those two items I think you're reaching.  Do you really want to take the time and figure this all out?  I don't.

I disagree that "I don't care because it's not my money."  It's not your money, either; I probably care about the same amount that you do.

The "golf business" is not doing well, and many clubs and courses would suffer if they raised the minimum wage significantly.  In today's world, manicuring dozens of acres of grass to play golf is questionable at best.  It is growing increasingly unreasonable. Golf as we know it is doomed; count your blessings.

On a personal level, I sympathize with the man who works 8-10 hours per day and makes $20k per year.  That person will have a difficult time raising himself, or his children, out of his current socioeconomic status, and I think that's bad for America.  He works hard, and he might be a very capable man who sires a brilliant, ambitious child, and that child has little chance at rising above his station in life.  It is a serious class problem we did not use to have. 

[Jeff Taylor]

Academic and public policy papers are written about this stuff and we have little chance of meeting the level of detail required to make this thread productive. One thing is certain, I would dread drawing Pat Mucci in the match play club championship. It would take more than the minimum wage to make my ass whooping worth while. I might pay to see him whoop up on someone else though. The price I would pay is affected by many economic factors (oh enough already)...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hi Jeff, and the doggedly tenacious Pat Mucci,

No question that the underlying finances are more complicated than I presented.  They are more complicated than you presented, too.  I'm not sure that staff expenditures, or real estate tax increases are significant.  On those two items I think you're reaching.  Do you really want to take the time and figure this all out?  I don't.

John,

I'm not reaching, but you are just guessing.

I already figured it out.
I've sat on "House", "Finance" and "Green" committee's and Boards at numerous clubs for close to 50' years.
Each and every year, in the face of rising costs, we tried to figure out how to keep dues increases to a minimum.
It's no easy job.

What you also don't understand is that there are a lot of marginal members at clubs, many of them older long time members who are embedded in the fabric of the club, members we didn't want to lose for a variety of reasons.   Dues increases of $ 500 or $ 1,000 were significant enough to cause those members to resign. 

But that doesn't matter to you or Gary because you have a political agenda.

I disagree that "I don't care because it's not my money."  It's not your money, either; I probably care about the same amount that you do.

Not true.

I do care and I care more than you because these members were friends of my dad's and friends of mine and the club was an integral part of their lives and I didn't want to see them have to leave an institution that was so near and dear to them.

Yet, you and Gary would just Jack the dues up to suit your political agenda, thus forcing many members to have to resign, AND leaving the remaining members with a larger financial burden.

The "golf business" is not doing well, and many clubs and courses would suffer if they raised the minimum wage significantly. 

The "golf business" is not doing well for ne reason and one reason only..... Because the economy isn't doing well

In today's world, manicuring dozens of acres of grass to play golf is questionable at best. 

So now you and your radical socialist ilk are going to tell me how to spend my leisure time

It is growing increasingly unreasonable.

"Unreasonable" by who's standard ?
The radical Left's ?
I notice that Obama plays golf at every chance he gets.

Golf as we know it is doomed; count your blessings.

Golf will be fine once the economy recovers.
I do count my blessings, but I also work hard so that I have the means to enjoy a game I love.
And neither you nor anyone else is going to tell me how to spend my leisure time or my money.

On a personal level, I sympathize with the man who works 8-10 hours per day and makes $20k per year.  That person will have a difficult time raising himself, or his children, out of his current socioeconomic status, and I think that's bad for America. 

We agree, but it's the politicians, especially the Liberals who drove business and jobs from our shores.

I went to a public school and got a great education.
I still remember my Junior High and High School teachers who devoted themselves to educating me.
But, the teachers unions have cultivated mediocrity and worse.
They've destroyed our educational system
I favor collective bargaining, but not when bad apples can't be removed from the system

He works hard, and he might be a very capable man who sires a brilliant, ambitious child, and that child has little chance at rising above his station in life.  It is a serious class problem we did not use to have. 

That's not true and We always had that problem.
"Brilliant, ambitious" children are fast tracked in our educational system

If you look at private schools and colleges they devote a significant portion of their budgets to "Student Aid"

Raising the minimum wage isn't the solution, bringing jobs with meaningful wages back to America is the answer.

If we don't start crafting intelligent "government-business" policies, policies that bring meaningful jobs back to America, it's only going to get worse.

[John Kirk]

Sorry Pat, I'm feeling too happy and well adjusted to venture down this rabbit hole.

Pat called me a socialist.

 

[Bill_McBride]

 The thing that irritates me about the current federal minimum wage (a number of states and cities have higher minimums) is the number of employees who can't survive on that pay and turn to taxpayer funded support such as SNAP.   American taxpayers are subsidizing huge low pay corporations like Walmart and McDonald's, as well I'm sure, many private clubs.  How is this right?  I strongly favor an increased minimum wage for this reason. 

[Steve Lang]

  ya, know, maybe not... some background info, perhaps noise to some per http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx

Summary
Currently, 29 states and D.C. have minimum wages above the federal minimum wage.
2014 highlights: Lawmakers in Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia and D.C. enacted increases during the 2014 session, while voters in Alaska, Arkansas, Nebraska and South Dakota approved minimum wage increases through ballot measures.

State Legislation
Minimum wage legislation database (2014 and 2015)
LegisBrief (February 2014)

States without: AL, LA, MS, NH (REPEALED IN 2011), SC, TN, ( must affect their lack of good course maintenance or sustainable gca?)

Sources: U.S. Dept. of Labor, http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm; and state web sites.

Notes to state table presented which shows mainly ~5-9 $/hr range, most every state has a different twist to things..

1 American Samoa: The Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 (Public Law 110-28) sets minimum wage rates within American Samoa and provides for additional increases in the minimum wage of $0.50 per hour each year on May 25, until reaching the minimum wage generally applicable in the United States. The wage rates are set for particular industries, not for an employee's particular occupation. The rates are minimum rates; an employer may choose to pay an employee at a rate higher than the rate(s) for its industry.
2  Connecticut: The Connecticut minimum wage rate automatically increases to 1/2 of 1 percent above the rate set in the Fair Labor Standards Act if the Federal minimum wage rate equals or becomes higher than the State minimum.
3  District of Columbia: In the District of Columbia, the rate is automatically set at $1 above the Federal minimum wage rate if the District of Columbia rate is lower.
4 The Maine minimum wage is automatically replaced with the Federal minimum wage rate if it is higher than the State minimum with the exception that any such increase is limited to no more than $1.00 per hour above the current legislated State rate.
5  The Massachusetts minimum wage rate automatically increases to 10 cents above the rate set in the Fair Labor Standards Act if the Federal minimum wage equals or becomes higher than the State minimum.
6  Minnesota: With the passage of H.B. 2091 (2014), the annual sales volume threshold was reduced to $500,000. For large employers, with an annual sales volume of $500,000 or more, the minimum wage is $8.00; for small employers, those with an annual sales volume of less than $500,000, the minimum wage is $6.50.
7  Missouri - In addition to the exemption for federally covered employment, the law exempts, among others, employees of a retail or service business with gross annual sales or business done of less than $500,000.
8  Montana: the $4.00 rate applies to businesses with gross annual sales of $110,000 or less; $7.90 applies to all others.
9  Nevada: $8.25 without health benefits; $7.25 with health benefits.
10 Ohio: $7:25 for employers grossing $283,000 or less
11 Oklahoma: Employers of ten or more full time employees at any one location and employers with annual gross sales over $100,000 irrespective of number of full time employees are subject to federal minimum wage; all others are subject to state minimum wage of $2.00 (OK ST T. 40 § 197.5).
12 Puerto Rico: Employers covered by the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) are subject to the Federal minimum wage of $7.25. Employers not covered by the FLSA will be subject to a minimum wage that is at least 70 percent of the Federal minimum wage or the applicable mandatory decree rate of $5.08, whichever is higher. The Secretary of Labor and Human Resources may authorize a rate based on a lower percentage for any employer who can show that implementation of the 70 percent rate would substantially curtail employment in that business.
13 Virgin Islands: $4.30 for businesses with gross annual receipts of less than $150,000.

Other Exceptions
Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Puerto Rico, Utah, and Virginia exclude from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act.
Hawaii, Kansas, and Michigan exclude from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act, if the State wage is higher than the Federal wage.
The Georgia state minimum wage is $5.15. Employees covered under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act are subject to the federal minimum wage of $7.25, but those not covered under the FLSA may be paid the state minimum wage of $5.15.

and for full disclosure;
i had a minimum wage job in summer 1968, washing delivery trucks for a commercial uniform laundry business... like $2.00 an hour, that sucked once i learned what FICA meant... so i took a Red Cross Lifeguard class at the Y, and got a  $5/hr job.. that was much better.. also learned that min wage jobs are not careers or ever meant to be "life wages," just a place to start and get some experience

[David Cronheim]

Hey Guys,

I'm going to jump in here and take a shot at the underlying assumption which I think is just incorrect - that grounds crews are making at or near minimum wage. I can tell you in my experience as someone who has to manage a golf course maintenance budget that no one on our staff makes anything close to minimum wage. We have a fairly typical maintenance budget for a Northeastern private club.

We pay our guys $5-7 above minimum wage on an hourly basis because that's what we have to pay to get above average workers, but that's their wage rate for 40 hours. They're non-exempt employees so they get overtime at time and a half. I'd venture there isn't a golf course anywhere in the USA where the grounds crew doesn't get some overtime. Our guys work about 50-60 hours a week in season. In fact, the number of hours of overtime they're going to expect to get is a key piece of negotiating to bring on new guys. We recently lost a handful of guys to another club who offered them 32 hours of overtime. You do the math, but when all is said and done, these guys are bringing home well in excess of $15/hr.

Now assistant pros...that's a different story, but working on the greens crew at a golf course is not a minimum wage job pretty much anywhere in the Northeast.

[Jeff Taylor]

"American taxpayers are subsidizing huge low pay corporations like Walmart and McDonald's, as well I'm sure, many private clubs.  How is this right?  I strongly favor an increased minimum wage for this reason."

Actually, American taxpayers are subsidizing the recipients of the benefits. This has to be true because not every recipient is employed. For your logic to hold true then we must blame these low pay corporations for not only paying low wages but for not paying them to enough people.
It's a difficult question but one could easily argue that minimum wage laws are a way for government to dump assistance cost onto employers. I cite the currently delayed employer mandate for health care insurance as another example of this practice. Not saying that I am right but there are two sides to the equation. I recommend that you not feel guilty for shopping at Walmart of for that matter, buying anything on sale.

[noonan]

Hey Guys,

I'm going to jump in here and take a shot at the underlying assumption which I think is just incorrect - that grounds crews are making at or near minimum wage. I can tell you in my experience as someone who has to manage a golf course maintenance budget that no one on our staff makes anything close to minimum wage. We have a fairly typical maintenance budget for a Northeastern private club.

We pay our guys $5-7 above minimum wage on an hourly basis because that's what we have to pay to get above average workers, but that's their wage rate for 40 hours. They're non-exempt employees so they get overtime at time and a half. I'd venture there isn't a golf course anywhere in the USA where the grounds crew doesn't get some overtime. Our guys work about 50-60 hours a week in season. In fact, the number of hours of overtime they're going to expect to get is a key piece of negotiating to bring on new guys. We recently lost a handful of guys to another club who offered them 32 hours of overtime. You do the math, but when all is said and done, these guys are bringing home well in excess of $15/hr.

Now assistant pros...that's a different story, but working on the greens crew at a golf course is not a minimum wage job pretty much anywhere in the Northeast.

Agree.

There is no way you can get any good employees under $10 an hour.

[Bill_McBride]

"American taxpayers are subsidizing huge low pay corporations like Walmart and McDonald's, as well I'm sure, many private clubs.  How is this right?  I strongly favor an increased minimum wage for this reason."

Actually, American taxpayers are subsidizing the recipients of the benefits. This has to be true because not every recipient is employed. For your logic to hold true then we must blame these low pay corporations for not only paying low wages but for not paying them to enough people.
It's a difficult question but one could easily argue that minimum wage laws are a way for government to dump assistance cost onto employers. I cite the currently delayed employer mandate for health care insurance as another example of this practice. Not saying that I am right but there are two sides to the equation. I recommend that you not feel guilty for shopping at Walmart of for that matter, buying anything on sale.

Nice job of deflection, misdirection and obfuscation.   I didn't say a word about benefits for UNEMPLOYED workers, I'm talking about EMPLOYED workers.  Walmart and McDonald's et al are able to attract workers for a pay check below the poverty line because those workers are eligible for SNAP.  Isn't that corporate welfare?  So are the oil depletion allowance and big farm subsidies but that's a story for another day.

[Jeff Taylor]

I never suggested that you included unemployed people. What I did suggest is that it is taxpayers that subsidize all of those recipients (employed or not). That a corporation might pay a higher wage to some of it's employees, if benefits were not available, is not a taxpayer subsidy to the corporation. Neither is reducing my tax liability by using the cost method for the initial investment in oil extraction rights. But you are right, that is a story for another day.

[Andrew Buck]

Hey Guys,

I'm going to jump in here and take a shot at the underlying assumption which I think is just incorrect - that grounds crews are making at or near minimum wage. I can tell you in my experience as someone who has to manage a golf course maintenance budget that no one on our staff makes anything close to minimum wage. We have a fairly typical maintenance budget for a Northeastern private club.

We pay our guys $5-7 above minimum wage on an hourly basis because that's what we have to pay to get above average workers, but that's their wage rate for 40 hours. They're non-exempt employees so they get overtime at time and a half. I'd venture there isn't a golf course anywhere in the USA where the grounds crew doesn't get some overtime. Our guys work about 50-60 hours a week in season. In fact, the number of hours of overtime they're going to expect to get is a key piece of negotiating to bring on new guys. We recently lost a handful of guys to another club who offered them 32 hours of overtime. You do the math, but when all is said and done, these guys are bringing home well in excess of $15/hr.

Now assistant pros...that's a different story, but working on the greens crew at a golf course is not a minimum wage job pretty much anywhere in the Northeast.

Agree.

There is no way you can get any good employees under $10 an hour.

In some areas you can get high school/college kids and/or retired people for under $10/hour + free golf ... that includes maintenance jobs.

I'm almost certain a few guys on my dad's staff make less than $10/hour and still pay their annual membership, but that's because they'd rather be out on a golf course both mowing and golfing than at home in retirement. 

[Scott Furlong]

So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?

[Jeff Taylor]

Only if as the employer, I get to pick that wage.

[Mike_Young]

So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?

I don't think I should be told what to pay anyone.  The problem with minimum wage is that often you are paying someone more than they are worth....

[Pat Burke]

Relative to this thread I hope.
My Step dad is a golf course superintendent.  He designed, helped build, and now runs the golf course
maintenance for the same course.
His course is low priced for southern California.
He has always believed in rewarding his employees for hard work, better pay.  I used to do some work with him,
largely supervising when he was to be out of town.
His crew members, make more hourly, on average, than the crew at the mid/high end I work at.  When I last looked a couple years ago,
probably 3-4$ per hour more.

Of course, he has a much smaller crew, and for the most part, can cover jobs in all areas of the operation.  Good, hard working, and talented guys that get paid better.  SOmehow, they produce a product that is well above many, with far less waste.