Raising the minimum wage in the golf industry

[Jim Hoak]

This is the stupidest thread I have read in my 5+ years on GCA.  Let's stick to golf course architecture!!

[Jon Wiggett]

Ben,

I am not sure if this is an example of the differing view points between the US and most of Europe but I can empathise far more with Sean's point of view than yours in this matter. If I am reading you correctly you are saying there is no one in the US on the poverty line which I find hard to believe. We had an experiment of deregulation of business internationally through the nineties and noughties which failed in a spectacular way in 2008. I for one believe it is time for companies to held to account not only through their bottom line by the shareholders but also for their ethics by the general public.

Patrick,

here is a list for you.

•G1 Venues Ltd, trading as Arta Restaurant, Glasgow, neglected to pay £45,124.00 to 2895 workers
•The Clothing Works Ltd (ceased trading), Corby, neglected to pay £17,007.08 to 38 workers
•Freedom Sportsline Ltd, trading as Foot Locker, London, neglected to pay £16,718.25 to 601 workers
•French Connection UK Ltd, London, neglected to pay £16,436.05 to 367 workers
•Minara Enterprises Ltd, trading as Fakenham Tandoori, Fakenham, neglected to pay £11,696.47 to 1 worker
•Sharon Makin, trading as Clever Clowns Day Nursery, Manchester, neglected to pay £10,572.08 to 6 workers
•UK Gaming Computers Ltd, Colchester, neglected to pay £6,036.99 to 2 workers
•Sarah Sloane and David Sloane, trading as Hawes Side Nursery, Blackpool, neglected to pay £2,825.58 to 3 workers
•Weston Hire Services Ltd, Weston-super-Mare, neglected to pay £2,819.79 to 1 worker
•Miss C Glendon & Miss S Glendon, trading as Ciara’s Tots Day Nursery, Manchester, neglected to pay £2,549.23 to 1 worker
•Florence Opportunities Ltd, trading as Morgan Edward Hair & Beauty, Carmarthen, neglected to pay £2,201.99 to 1 worker
•Champneys Springs Ltd, Swadlincote, neglected to pay £1,950 to 5 workers
•H M Bodyshop Ltd, Colindale, London, neglected to pay £1944.83 to 1 worker
•David Hayton Ltd, Penrith, neglected to pay £1,865.48 to 1 worker
•Caledonian Leisure Sales Ltd, trading as Hurleys Operations, Birmingham, neglected to pay £1,628.63 to 1 worker
•The Bell at Skenfrith Ltd, Skenfrith, neglected to pay £1,619.36 to 1 worker
•Miss Kerris Dunne, Mr Frederick Dunne, and Mrs Alison Ashforth, trading as Aerobrights, Stafford, neglected to pay £1,529.82 to 6 workers
•Mortgages First Ltd, Colchester, neglected to pay £1,475.63 to 3 workers
•Fullworks (Ayrshire) Ltd, trading as The Full Works, Irvine, neglected to pay £1,362.76 to 2 workers
•Crazy Divas Ltd, trading as Divas, Colchester, neglected to pay £1,316.74 to 4 workers
•Glenview Development Partners Ltd, Tullibody, neglected to pay £1,150.42 to 1 worker
•Toni & Guy (Wilmslow) Ltd, Wilmslow, neglected to pay £1,031.12 to 1 worker
•Vertu Motors Plc, trading as Bristol Street Motors, Gateshead, neglected to pay £1,001.42 to 1 worker
•PNP Media Ltd, trading as EBS Marketing, Manchester, neglected to pay £981.06 to 2 workers
•Mr Trevor Trutwein, trading as Ambitions 2, Gillingham, neglected to pay £903.32 to 1 worker
•Mr Anthony Miller, trading as Sportline Car Sales, Coalville, neglected to pay £779.70 to 2 workers
•The Conde Nast Publications, London, neglected to pay £745.48 to 1 worker
•Mr Yong Zhang, trading as Dragon Cottage Chinese Takeaway, Loughborough, neglected to pay £711.80 to 1 worker
•99p Stores Ltd, Northampton, neglected to pay £633.39 to 11 workers
•Mr M & Mrs M Hargreaves, trading as Little Windrush, Solihull, neglected to pay £631.51 to 3 workers
•Azad & Sons Ltd, trading as Pizza Hut, Norwich, neglected to pay £622.58 to 23 workers
•The Bull’s Head (Inkberrow) Ltd, trading as The Bull’s Head Inn, Worcester, neglected to pay £580.95 to 3 workers
•Glyn Harding, trading as GCH Transport, Frome, neglected to pay £485.87 to 1 worker
•Mrs Yoko Banks, trading as Ashley House Hotel, Harrogate, neglected to pay £405.07 to 1 worker
•Mr Daniel Smith, trading as Smith’s Hair, Braintree, neglected to pay £385.86 to 1 worker
•Pharmacy 1st Ltd, Gillingham, neglected to pay £363.55 to 1 worker
•Ms Sonia Duncton, trading as The Three Compasses Public House, Alford, neglected to pay £344.72 to 3 workers
•Mrs Geraldine Kelly, trading as New Hope Creche, Enniskillen, neglected to pay £344.30 to 11 workers
•Bounty (UK) Ltd, Welwyn Garden City, neglected to pay £284.26 to 1 worker
•Golden Phoenix Inns Ltd, trading as The Crown Inn, Bristol, neglected to pay £284.01 to 1 worker
•The Widd Group Ltd, trading as Widd Signs, Leeds, neglected to pay £253.50 to 1 worker
•Mr Garry Evis, trading as Woodside MOT and Service Centre, Middlesbrough, neglected to pay £232.55 to 1 worker
•Mr Keith J Pygall, trading Pygall Coaches, Peterlee, neglected to pay £198.34 to 1 worker
•Ranc Care Homes Ltd, trading as Maidstone Care Centre, Ilford, neglected to pay £178.76 to 1 worker
•Call & Deliver Ltd, trading as Pizza Hut, Heckmondwike, neglected to pay £163.45 to 9 workers
•Mr Fernando Rocha, trading as A Tasca, Ely, neglected to pay £152.28 to 1 worker
•Winners 2000 Fitness Ltd, Torquay, neglected to pay £130.78 to 1 worker
•Central Electrical Ltd, Chesterfield, neglected to pay £130.28 to 1 worker

The 48 cases named today were thoroughly investigated by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

The scheme was revised in October 2013 to make it simpler to name and shame employers that do not comply with minimum wage rules


to be clear, although you are clearly the champion of big business I am not saying it is JUST big business.

Jon

[jeffwarne]

Jon,
I'm sure there's no one on this thread that doesn't "empathize" with Sean.
That doesn't mean we entirely agree with his solution, or that we are heartless.

We can only draw upon our own experiences, and everyone is different.
Sean for example, being from Detroit, can probably comment far more intelligently on the auto industry than I can; and no doubt can comment on his observations of labor practices in the UK.
Having not been a long time employer or employee in the US golf business, he's probably less qualified to comment on this thread than I am.
As mentioned by an earlier poster, there are often many perks to working in the golf business to include playing privileges, meals, mentorship, and association with many successful people who often provide a helping career hand.
If one is looking for a living wage to support a family, brings minimal skills to the table and is unwilling/unable to utilize the time and/or energy to improve them, they're probably best suited for another field which is perhaps not as overbuilt and populated by those willing to sacrifice financial compensation for other benefits, and potential future gain.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jeff,

I do not disagree with what you have written in your last post and must stress that my points are more general not just golf specific. Just out of interest are you taxed on 'payment in kind' such as playing privileges such as is the case here in the UK?

Jon

[Cliff Hamm]

I might reference the recent thread on the happiest countries in the world:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60998.0.html

It is likely no coincidence that many of these suffer from European socialism where the minimum wage is negotiated by unions.  I have not done the research, but I highly suspect the minimum wage is significantly higher than in the US.  I also believe all of these have a fine standard of living.


Happy and living well.  Not a bad combination....

[Jud_T]

Let me guess-  the real answer is a return to the gold standard

Go see 'Ex Machina' if you want to see the future of the golf industry.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I do not disagree with what you have written in your last post and must stress that my points are more general not just golf specific. Just out of interest are you taxed on 'payment in kind' such as playing privileges such as is the case here in the UK?

Jon

no.

What a perfect system-raise the minimum wage, and then tax them MORE

and by the way, even our youngest kids(14-16) after completion and performance bonuses,make 50% more than the US federal minimum wage as cost of living is high out here.
To say nothing of being trained to caddy and make substantially more-which leads to future career doors opening via members looking to open doors for enterprising people.

[BCowan]

We had an experiment of deregulation of business internationally through the nineties and noughties which failed in a spectacular way in 2008. I for one believe it is time for companies to held to account not only through their bottom line by the shareholders but also for their ethics by the general public.

   If you call Fed Reserve pushing Adjustable rate mortgages (Greenspan) and controlling interest rates (deregulation) then we are once again changing the meaning of words.  Also in pure capitalism there would be no GSE (Gov't sponsored entities) such as Fannie and Freddie which were started in the progressive era.  Is bailing out Lehman Brothers deregulation too?  That is called gov't intervention.  When the gov't bailed them out that sent out the message that other institutions would be bailed out too.  Which promotes reckless behavior caused by intervention.  Big corporations want regulations Jon, it squeezing out small business from taking any of their market share away from them.  example.

   When Carter deregulated the Beer industry, 150 micro breweries now exist in Michigan.  Before large beer producers had regulations on the amount of beer brewed per year to prevent start ups from taking any of their market share.  That is deregulation, and that is how small business prosper.  Another thing taxing income is theft, prior to the income tax in our country people were more prosperous.  Jon, you might want to re-look at the gov't talking points you have been fed to believe.  Gov't induced problems that require gov't solutions is a recipe for disaster.

  As far as the snide remark about the gold standard, which is laughable at best.  When we were on the gold standard, one income households were the norm for the middle class, case closed.    

This thread should be deleted, it has nothing to do with Arch, but I will not have Capitalism misrepresented.  

[Jud_T]

You forgot to mention a chicken in every pot and American jobs for American workers.  I suppose you prefer the way the Fed dealt with the Depression to the way it is dealing with the current crisis.  I also suppose that the economic prosperity of the 50's had nothing whatsoever to do with the post war boom.  I love logic like this.  Kid gets killed getting Ice cream in the World Trade Center on 9/11, so Ice Cream bad.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIKINhVNdSk

[Andrew Buck]

On one hand, the US is among the wealthiest nations in civilizations history, and it's arguably immoral to allow poverty.

On the other hand, there is little doubt that the increase of government involvement in "welfare" has adversely impacted (with other factors) families and communities involvement and obligation to each other on an intimate level. 

http://www.fljs.org/sites/www.fljs.org/files/publications/Murray.pdf

[Jon Wiggett]

Jeff,

I do not disagree with what you have written in your last post and must stress that my points are more general not just golf specific. Just out of interest are you taxed on 'payment in kind' such as playing privileges such as is the case here in the UK?

Jon

no.

What a perfect system-raise the minimum wage, and then tax them MORE

Way of the world my friend though it would be hoped that minimum wage was below the income tax threshold

and by the way, even our youngest kids(14-16) after completion and performance bonuses,make 50% more than the US federal minimum wage as cost of living is high out here.
To say nothing of being trained to caddy and make substantially more-which leads to future career doors opening via members looking to open doors for enterprising people.

Good to see you are part of a good employer culture

Ben,

I was commenting on the UK situation not the US.

Jon

[JC Jones]

This thread should be deleted, it has nothing to do with Arch, but I will not have Capitalism misrepresented.  

 

[Jeff Taylor]

Defenders of capitalism unite!
Of course there is a federally mandated membership fee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon Wiggett,

I didn't see one American company listed in your post.

Could you list the "big" American companies that failed to pay minimum wage.

Thanks

[Andy Stamm]

Jon Wiggett,

I didn't see one American company listed in your post.

Could you list the "big" American companies that failed to pay minimum wage.

Thanks

http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/intern-suits

Vanderbilt University
Sony Corporation of America, Sony Music Holdings Inc. and Columbia Recording Corp
Donna Karan International
Sony Music Entertainment
Viacom Inc., MTV Networks Music Production Inc., and MTV Networks Enterprises Inc.
NBCUniversal, Inc
Warner Music Group Corp. and Atlantic Recording Corp.
News Corp. and Fox Entertainment Group, Inc.
Warner Music Group Corp. and Atlantic Recording Corp.
Condé Nast Publications
The Hearst Corporation
Fox Searchlight Pictures, Inc.

[Andy Stamm]

How about some more:

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php

Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

Thanks for your list.

Could you identify the states where these companies failed to pay the legally required minimum wage to their full time employees.

You can do it on a company by company basis.

Vanderbilt is not a company, so you can eliminate them.

[Andy Stamm]

Adam,

Thanks for your list.

Could you identify the states where these companies failed to pay the legally required minimum wage to their full time employees.

You can do it on a company by company basis.

Vanderbilt is not a company, so you can eliminate them.

My name is not Adam.

I've linked the necessary information, so have at it. But, full time isn't a meaningful term here, so you're going to have some problems.

For the Black Swan case for example, the states were CA and NY, and at least some employees worked 40 hours per week and were not paid the legally required minimum wage. Please see the opinion. http://www.unpaidinternslawsuit.com/images/documents/memorandum_and_order_061113.pdf

The second list is totally different, and has nothing to do with the common issues of the first. The employees were likely long term, but there's probably no way to tell approximately how many hours they worked on an weekly or otherwise basis. Whether they are part time or full time simply isn't relevant. Plenty of these companies were also not paying legally required overtime, so from that you can guess that the employees were full time (if you accept that definition of full time). But it's a very long list, so...

[Andy Stamm]

Getting back to the golf industry, there were a number of golf clubs; that's even one of the business type classifications in the data set. One (met area) country club had 44 violations (10 of which were FLSA related) including $125k in minimum wage violation back pay. There are at least 3 in the (high wage) met area, including one that is quite famous.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm outraged at this one.

"A group of 1,245 dancers at a gentleman's club (a strip bar) in New York City have reached an $8 million preliminary settlement in a lawsuit over unpaid tips and wages, the latest in a series of employment cases in the exotic-dance industry. The Penthouse Executive Club misclassified its dancers as "independent contractors". The DOL also said the club had failed to pay the federal minimum wage and overtime pay."

[Gary Sato]

Interesting development today with Facebook.  I'm not sure this happens in the golf industry but what Facebook is doing is making sure all of their contractors pay a fair wage of at least $15 with benefits.



Now tech powerhouse Facebook (FB) is entering the minimum wage fight, implementing new standards on benefits for its contractors and vendors.

Vendors or contractors in the U.S.who do a "substantial amount of work" with the social media company will be required to pay their workers at least $15 an hour. Other requirements include offering at least 15 paid days off for vacation, sick pay and holidays.

Additionally, individuals who do not currently receive parental leave will be offered $4,000 in "new child" benefits, according to a blog posted on Facebook by COO Sheryl Sandberg .

"We are committed to providing a safe, fair work environment to everyone who helps Facebook connect the world," Sandberg wrote in the post. "This is an important step forward in this work for us."

While other tech companies have boosted benefits for some security guards and shuttle drivers, Facebook is among the first tech giants to publicly take a stance on the minimum wage. The federal minimum wage stands at $7.25 an hour.

Facebook joins other large corporations that already have raised wages, including Wal-Mart (WMT), Gap (GPS), McDonald's (MCD) and T.J. Maxx (TJX).

The minimum wage debate is intensifying heading into the 2016 election. And now Silicon Valley is weighing in.

The question now is whether other tech leaders will follow suit and raise wages and benefits. "All of this helps to move the argument forward-the writing is on the wall," said Holly Sklar, president of advocacy group Business for a Fair Minimum Wage. "Too many Silicon Valley companies have employees with great pay and benefits and perks, but historically use contractors with little or no benefits."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

Thanks for your list.

Could you identify the states where these companies failed to pay the legally required minimum wage to their full time employees.

You can do it on a company by company basis.

Vanderbilt is not a company, so you can eliminate them.

My name is not Adam.

I've linked the necessary information, so have at it.

But, full time isn't a meaningful term here, so you're going to have some problems.

"Full time employee" is a meaningful term.
It's the crux of the case/s

This case is less about the rate of wage than it is about the classification of the individuals.

Full time employees versus interns.

Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)

For the Black Swan case for example, the states were CA and NY, and at least some employees worked 40 hours per week and were not paid the legally required minimum wage. Please see the opinion.

http://www.unpaidinternslawsuit.com/images/documents/memorandum_and_order_061113.pdf

The second list is totally different, and has nothing to do with the common issues of the first. The employees were likely long term, but there's probably no way to tell approximately how many hours they worked on an weekly or otherwise basis. Whether they are part time or full time simply isn't relevant. Plenty of these companies were also not paying legally required overtime, so from that you can guess that the employees were full time (if you accept that definition of full time). But it's a very long list, so...

[Andy Stamm]

Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]

How about some more:

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php

Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]

How about some more:

Andy,

I checked the link for Northwest Airlines, under WHD, subset wage violations and found that the DOL site listed "NONE"

NO wage violations.

So, do you just throw names out there hoping that no one will follow up and do their due diligence ?

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php

Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...

[Andy Stamm]

Please cite cases where big employers failed to pay full time employees the minimum wage (State and/or Federal)[/color]

How about some more:

Andy,

I checked the link for Northwest Airlines, under WHD, subset wage violations and found that the DOL site listed "NONE"

NO wage violations.

So, do you just throw names out there hoping that no one will follow up and do their due diligence ?

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/search.php

Dollar General
5/3 Bank
Kroger
Target
Northwest Airlines
Denny's
Foot Locker
...

Look at the data set.

http://ogesdw.dol.gov/views/data_summary.php

You'll see that Northwest Airlines had a $148839.25 "Back Wage Agreed to under FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) Minimum Wages."