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Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
One answer to slow play.....
« on: April 28, 2015, 05:20:55 AM »
A.  CHANGE THE RULE ON LOST BALLS TO ALLOW FOR ONLY ONE MINUTE OF SEARCHING AFTER REACHING WHERE YOU THINK THE BALL IS LOST.

B.  MAKE THE DEFINITION OF A "LOST" BALL INCORPORATE WATER HAZARDS.

C.  FOR NON-TOURNAMENT PLAY ALLOW FOR A DROP (WITHIN 2 CLUB LENGTHS OF AN AGREED TO AREA WHERE THE BALL WAS LOST, ADDING A PENALTY STROKE) AFTER THE MINUTE IS UP

D.  FOR TOURNAMENT PLAY, MAKE THE PLAYER WALK BACK TO THE TEE IF HE/SHE HAS NOT HIT A PROVISIONAL BALL

This "answer" was inspired by a golfing holiday in Portugal last week which was good, but could have been great if I didn't have to spend ~30 minutes each round looking for other people's "lost" golf balls.......
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 05:41:41 AM »
C.  FOR NON-TOURNAMENT PLAY ALLOW FOR A DROP (WITHIN 2 CLUB LENGTHS OF AN AGREED TO AREA WHERE THE BALL WAS LOST, ADDING A PENALTY STROKE) AFTER THE MINUTE IS UP

I always request our yearly tour group not to take provisionals, but to take a quick look for a lost ball, if not found drop in the fairway (or good spot) parallel to where ball was lost and ADD 2 SHOT PENALTY.  It does make a difference in speed.  I also try not to go out in 4balls...this really speeds up play because practically on every hole someone in a 4ball has lost a ball when playing tough courses in high summer. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 06:08:03 AM »
Rich: I have been a member of 4 different clubs and we always hit provisionals when we thought there was a possibility of a ball being lost or OB and if we didn't and the ball was lost or OB we dropped a ball and went on except if it was a tournament.  It does seem that we spent  the most time looking for a ball when no one thought the ball was lost or OB.  I cannot remember anyone actually timing how long we were looking for a ball other than in a tournament. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 08:14:35 AM »
On travel trips in UK/Ireland we adopt the 30 second look rule where you can drop laterally with one stroke penalty (in the rough) as long as you don't spend more than 30 seconds looking.
Didn't take my assistant long to figure out he could just bomb driver and at worst drop and hit wedge on the green.

An offshoot of Sean's rule is to allow a player to drop in the fairway under a 2 shot penalty -a "designated provisional"

As he says -with a 4 ball nearly always one or more is in the shite
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 09:21:00 AM »
A.  CHANGE THE RULE ON LOST BALLS TO ALLOW FOR ONLY ONE MINUTE OF SEARCHING AFTER REACHING WHERE YOU THINK THE BALL IS LOST.

Not nearly enough time, especially in areas of high grass


B.  MAKE THE DEFINITION OF A "LOST" BALL INCORPORATE WATER HAZARDS.

C.  FOR NON-TOURNAMENT PLAY ALLOW FOR A DROP (WITHIN 2 CLUB LENGTHS OF AN AGREED TO AREA WHERE THE BALL WAS LOST, ADDING A PENALTY STROKE) AFTER THE MINUTE IS UP

And if the parties don't agree, which is highly likely ?


D.  FOR TOURNAMENT PLAY, MAKE THE PLAYER WALK BACK TO THE TEE IF HE/SHE HAS NOT HIT A PROVISIONAL BALL

This "answer" was inspired by a golfing holiday in Portugal last week which was good, but could have been great if I didn't have to spend ~30 minutes each round looking for other people's "lost" golf balls.......

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2015, 09:29:44 AM »
 8)  no forecaddie? 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2015, 09:36:33 AM »
Hello,

Even though I think it is greenside play, cart paths and green to tee distances which are the main culprits for slow play, I like the spirit of these ideas.

1. any number of minutes is arbitrary, but it should be reduced to three minutes, and time spent by caddies, officials, etc, looking before player arrives shouldn't count towards the three.

2. I think the fellow competitor/opponent should entirely determine the area for a drop of the ball, the player himself should have no say.

2a. I think the drop should be one penalty shot if the player elects to drop where opponent/FC determines, or two shots if he elects to move two club lengths into the nearest fairway margin, no nearer the hole. If there is no fairway on the hole (like a par 3), this option is rendered inoperative and its one shot, where the opponent/FC determines.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Greg Feldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 09:43:11 AM »
I play in a group that has adopted similar rules and they seem to be helping.  And there is one more that is also very effective that I would add to your list:

E  NO MORE THAN TWO PLAYERS LOOKING FOR A LOST BALL

So often there is an unspoken obligation that everyone in the foursome feels like they have to help the guy whose ball is lost.  This really slows things down, because even if the ball is found within a minute, 3 guys are now out of position.  This is time they should have been spent getting to their own ball and preparing for their own next shot.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 09:45:52 AM »
Some others--
Place a ball rather than dropping it under current rules.
Leave the flagstick in--no penalty for hitting it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2015, 09:47:34 AM »
How about putting everything out. That way you won't notice how slowly the group in front of you is playing.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2015, 09:55:40 AM »
My regular group has recently spent the better part of an entire dinner debating this topic.
We like to think that we discussed most relevant parts of the argument. We looked at it from private club and public access perspectives.

Our conclusions to speed up play came down to two fundamental points:

1. Reduce one's "pre-shot routine" to under 25 seconds
2. While not quite being "ready golf", players must be ready to hit when it is their turn: know yardage, select club, think about shot, etc.

My pre-shot routine is 18 seconds. (From the moment you put tee in ground to when you hit the ball, as an example.) Tour average is 37 seconds. Bernard Langer is 45+. If the average amateur can trim 15 seconds from a pre-shot routine (40 seconds to 25 seconds, inclusing putting), that means:

15 seconds x 85 shots x 4 players / 60 seconds = 85 minutes. This turns a 4:18 round into 3:00 round which is my group's average. Now, I'm a realist, so let's just cut that number in half and say it saves just 40 minutes...still, not bad.

Then add being more prepared and that number can drop.

Most recreational golf I have seen (at resorts and munis) is painful as players watch each other instead of paying attention to their own preparedness. Easily adds 15 seconds per shot per player. The again, let's cut that in half.

You combine these two things, you can get a 4-ball around 18 holes in 3:00 and NO ONE will feel that they rushed or hurried. Sure, when you have matches of highly skilled players, you may see more time taken. But. I am talking about your Saturday morning $5 Nassau with your buddies.

It works.

Brent Hutto

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2015, 09:55:52 AM »
I would be happier spending 4 hours of a 5-hour round standing in the fairway woolgathering than spending the same 5 hours tramping around looking for someone else's golf ball.

From about the tenth round of golf I ever played I realized that the game is not worth playing when everyone treats golf balls like a priest treats souls, never giving one up for lost.

I typically spent 30-60 seconds looking for my golf ball and will gladly spend a similar time looking for someone else's. But honestly after about a dozen of those 30-60 second looks in a round my interest flags and I pretty much quit looking altogether.

Ian,

A couple years after I took up the game, not too long after I started taking lessons, my teaching pro buddy would put me through a practice exercise designed to streamline my "routine". We'd set up at the driving range with him standing behind me with a stopwatch. We'd go through a simulated round, teeing up a ball then hitting an iron shot, etc. For each shot he'd say "Start" and I'd step up and hit the shot before the stopwatch got to 16 seconds. If the ball wasn't in the air at 16 seconds he'd stop me and we'd start over.

Now it's 20 years later and I'd be gobsmacked if any teaching pro in the country were doing that drill with students. It's all about "taking your time" and not hitting "if you're not ready" and "reset" if some stray noise or thought or butterfly flapping its wings in China distracts you.

Of all the lessons I've had, that early practice was among the most long-term useful. Prior to that I tended to fidget around, shuffle my feet, waggle a couple times, look back and forth from the ball to the target to my hands, back to the ball and then finally I'd totally freeze up for 10, 15, 20 seconds before finally pulling the trigger. As soon as I found out how much better I hit the ball and how much better it *feels* to just step up and hit, I've never wanted to go back!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:02:10 AM by Brent Hutto »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2015, 10:03:18 AM »
Because of the seriousness of Lyme disease my regular group has mandated that no one is even allowed to look for another players ball, partner or not.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 10:19:31 AM »
How about you play just as fast or as slowly as you want, but you be totally prepared to let the group behind through if they are going faster irrespective if you are looking for a ball or not. I'm amazed at the number of dickheads out there who see it as an affront to their manhood to let anyone through.

If everyone was prepared to do that there would be a lot less knock on on other groups timing.

Niall

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 10:24:57 AM »
Sadly I’m tired of all this. Most golfers have no idea how painfully slow they are. In addition to the above how about the guy who has to stand watching his ball sail down the fairway land, run out and then pick up his tee and move from the centre of the teeing area. If it’s straight you have plenty of time to pick up the tee and mover to the side and still see the interesting bit where it lands. Assume this happens 8 times a round per player and delays the next tee going in the ground by 15secs?   Now you may say that’s only 8 mins per 4 ball but really what needs to change is the attitude.

The same guy will write up his scorecard when he’s first on the next tee. After driving he will look for his head cover, carefully replace it, look around and then slowly pick up his bag and then amble down via the stairs at the back of the tee…

In Scotland I have never been forced to watch someone write in the scores and players can walk, talk, pick up a bag and replace the hardcover and Driver on the move, all while rolling up the next fag!



A few years ago there was much talk by economists about how people could be encouraged to do the right thing if they were given a little nudge.

What we need is an Arnie Medal. To earn one you would need to be nominated as a fast player by a minimum of 5 of your peers and hand in 3 cards a year where the club measured your 2 ball round at under 3.15, or a 3 ball 3.30, and/or a 4 ball inside 3.45.  The medal would be designed to hang from your bag showing the world you are an unselfish golfer and Clubs could be dissuaded from letting player’s without the medal, play at peak times.   I can dream can’t I?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:27:12 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 10:37:58 AM »
NO MORE THAN TWO PLAYERS LOOKING FOR A LOST BALL

Yes, it drves me bonkers when a guy is stood by his ball then walks over to help look for a lost ball without playing first.  There should always be a rotation of looking and hitting.  Chances are either 1) the ball will be found while play continues or 2) the ball is never found...so what is the point in stopping play?  It is dead easy to lose 3-5 minutes of play for a lost ball if guys don't rotate.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 10:39:44 AM »
I have been guilty in the past of hurrying on a hole so that I can catch the group in front of me forcing them to let me play though. It's selfish shameful behavior.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 10:44:30 AM »
"Most recreational golf I have seen (at resorts and munis) is painful as players watch each other instead of paying attention to their own preparedness. Easily adds 15 seconds per shot per player. The again, let's cut that in half."

Too true.  I'm often green side while the rest of the unwitting players are clustered around one of their second shots, whether walking or cart-balling.  Most players are just oblivious.

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 10:44:44 AM »
I have no idea what people are thinking during preshot routines.  The longer I take the worse ideas go into my head, like the intrusive thoughts of a schizophrenic.  Half the time I forget to take a practice swing.  

All of us have spent long rounds fuming behind groups.  Some of it is the course itself, hazards everywhere, long rough.  Part of it is three people watching one person hit it, congratulating the striker or sharing the misery, then reconvening again near the next ball.  

Out of the blue yesterday I heard a blurb on the radio that most golfers worldwide think the game takes too long.  We are the problem.  And we can't fix ourselves.  Who here would not want to play a match in 2.5 hours?  A fourball in 3?  It is possible but culturally not done.  Very few operators would go up to a group taking forever and explain that their custom is not welcome due to speed of play concerns.  
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 10:52:48 AM »
The interesting thing about speed of play is that its the golfers which are usually perceived as the main problem.  Without changing my behaviour, it is routine that it takes me 30 minutes more to play my home course than any number of ~6000 yard courses.  There can be no doubt that design and maintenance plays a prominent role in the issue of slow play.  If we are comparing pace of play to 90 years ago I think much more like 30% golfers, 40% design/maintenenace and 30% style of play (ie 4balls rather than 2balls).     

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2015, 11:05:05 AM »
I agree with Sean that all sorts of minor (and not so minor) aspects of the course's layout can add up to major additional time. It's obvious that green to tee walks matter, as do severe hills or long boardwalks through/around swamps. But smaller factors like the arrangement of bunkers relative to the greens, blindness on certain shots or poorly drained areas to be avoided can matter too.

And my favorite drum to beat is the purely ridiculous amount of to-and-fro between nines and before or after the round that is built in to many USA courses in which golf carts are the norm. I know of one fun to play course locally where the total distance before the round, between nines and after the round to get back to the parking lot must add up to nearly 1,500 yards. I walk briskly but a mile of extra walking in addition to the actual golf course can add as much as 20 minutes to the entire experience for no reason at all.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2015, 11:05:36 AM »
"Most recreational golf I have seen (at resorts and munis) is painful as players watch each other instead of paying attention to their own preparedness. Easily adds 15 seconds per shot per player. The again, let's cut that in half."

Too true.  I'm often green side while the rest of the unwitting players are clustered around one of their second shots, whether walking or cart-balling.  Most players are just oblivious.


The last sentence is the answer. Wake up out there.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2015, 11:21:39 AM »
Golf is the only sport where your fellow participants find it rude if you choose to play by the rules.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2015, 11:34:01 AM »
 8) problem with the sport is, its a game that people want to get different things out of... and it takes a lot of different types of people walking to make the earth go round..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One answer to slow play.....
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2015, 03:42:35 PM »
Could someone explain to me how the group can figure out on the agreed "area where the ball was lost?"

If you know where it was lost, wouldn't you be able to find it ???

And yes, when a tree falls in the forest, it does make a sound...