[Bryan Izatt]

As you know, Mike, I've already done that.   You get exactly two miles to the end of the property near the site of the Shinnecock Inn.



The orange line is 2 miles.  The long blue line is 1 mile.  The short blue line is a quarter mile. 

David, Mike,

Here's another 2 mile line down the more or less centre of the course.  If you were to build a rectangle along the centre line that extends 140 yards on either side it would encompass most of the course.  That said, I still think it was a convenient metaphor to describe about 205 acres and that CBM never contemplated the property as a rectangle based on 2 miles down the centre or along the the eastern and northern boundary.

[Bryan Izatt]

..........................



 I've read "Scotland's Gift" an inordinate number of times,   ........................


A little English 101 - "Inordinate" means  "excessive, undue, unreasonable, unjustifiable, unwarrantable, disproportionate, unwarranted, unnecessary, needless".  Which did you mean?   


............................


Morespeculation on your part.
Would you cite, anywhere, where the developer restricted his use of the 205 acres.

....................................




You could go back and reread (or read for the first time) David's post #696.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

You can bluster all you want.  The yellow lines are where the 1904 USGS topo mapped unimproved roads.  The red lines are the property boundaries.  Those are facts. 

Of course, you can tell us that the USGS got it wrong in 1904 and you know there were no unimproved roads there.  Why not, you've already told us that the Suffolk county GIS is wrong, Macdonald's blueprint is flawed, the NGLA Walker Cup program is wrong, Macdonald got things wrong in Scotland's Gift, and on and on it goes......................

Why is your "premise" so important to you?

[Bryan Izatt]

Back at the beginning of this thread Patrick (I think) coined the term "donut hole" for the current clubhouse site.  The donut hole idea arose I think from the early stick diagram of the course that had the current 1st and 18th curving around open space in the middle.




The 18th and 1st as currently extant are not nearly that curvilinear.  They weren't in the 1938 aerial and weren't in the 1929 Walker Cup program drawing. In fact, there really was no donut hole where the clubhouse sits.   





Now, David is saying that the blueprint may show the first hole further north (and, thus nearer or on the clubhouse site).

Even now the clubhouse sits virtually on the 18th fairway and is only 30 yards left of the straight line between the 1st tee and 1st green for those having a go at the green.  And, being only 150 yards from the 1st tee, the clubhouse must take some hits from that direction or even from the 18th hole side from players trying to keep away from the bluff.  Seems odd to me that Macdonald would have squeezed the clubhouse in such a constrained space.  I guess the views were worth it.

One also wonders how different the early course was from the current layout.

[MCirba]

David,

Nice job on the blueprint.  Now that you have it plotted it might be possible to approximately date it through comparison with the routing map that show that state of the routing and planned bunkers as of the time it was published in August 1907.

[MCirba]

Bryan,

Thanks for the additional look with that centerline.

I would agree with you that it's likely it was just shorthand for the approximate 200 or so acres Macdonald promised his Founders and then secured in Dec 1906 running from the Shinnecock Inn, skirting along Bullshead Bay, out to the Peconic Bay for a stretch along the bluff, all of which encompassed the natural landforms and ideal soils he had located.  We also know that it would encompass those replica holes he identified early such as the Alps, Eden, redan, and an original Cape.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Nice job on the blueprint.  Now that you have it plotted it might be possible to approximately date it through comparison with the routing map that show that state of the routing and planned bunkers as of the time it was published in August 1907.

Would that be the rendering in Scotland's Gift?  A note on that says "same as designed in 1907,except for modern developments."  Or is there another one I am forgetting?

[Jeff_Brauer]

 

Jeff Brauer,

Do you suppose at some point you will accept that I am not out to get you or working from ulterior motives, but rather am just calling it as I see it?

David,

I have always believed you call them like you see them.....but then I believe that about referees and umpires, but occasionally vocally disagree with their calls.

Nice work on the map overlays, I think they contribute a lot to our understanding of how a great course comes together.  And thanks for the info on how you got a clearer scan. I will do that this weekend to further enlighten myself, even as your overlay may reduce the need for it.

[MCirba]

Jeff,

I'm talking about the first published routing from the August 1907 Brooklyn Daily Eagle Bryan reproduced above.

One cool thing on that map I just noted is that the convex bunkers or sandy mounds on 17 are called "Ant Hill Bunkers".

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oh....well that one seems clearly to be done by some art guy in the newspaper graphic department.  I think a better comparison is to the one in SG.  At least, that was what I was comparing it to.  David's comparison to the 1938 aerials is probably even more apropos.  Both are fascinating and more accurate representations.

Nice catch on the ant hill bunkers. I didn't look that closely, so I was going to say an architect from Toledo must have done some early remodeling.......

[MCirba]

Jeff,

You ignoramus...there you go with another outburst!  

Seriously, the one thing we know about that drawing is that it was likely based on a reporters visit a week or two prior.  Whether it represented the plan or what was on the ground at that point...perhaps I'll repost the prior article for reference and let others decide.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike, you ignorant slut!  

I am not even sure we know that much. First, it looks like a third grader drew it, second, its hard to fathom arrangements in airplane view from human eye perspective. My guess is he had some version of the CBM maps and just made the simplified drawing from those.

Every article and drawing has a purpose.  The blueprint for example was to figure out (or depict) what was designed on the ground.

The newspaper article is trying to give a broad audience some understanding of the topic in limited space.  They probably only wanted to show a general layout, so I wouldn't even bother trying to decipher if the donut hole was there or not.

BTW, one of our off line friends, when he is sending David mean emails, has mentioned to use in emails that he had heard the 18th green had moved closer to the water to accommodate the new clubhouse location.  Not sure if that is true, or even if he is sure it is true, but it might be worth studying those maps and aerials with that in mind, to see if it helps us better understand the clubhouse issue.

IMHO, if 1 and 18 are different, and moved some way, it would pretty well disavow the notion that CBM would be reserving that for clubhouse, unless we think a cash strapped operation would build holes in its way, only to be moved later.  Similarly, I think extending nine only after the new clubhouse was built suggests the site near the INN was the original planned site.

[JESII]

Or we could just take CBM's word for it...as opposed to Pat's "what would you have done" interpretation 100 years later...

[JESII]

David,

Regarding your premise that the developer held reversion rights in some form; wouldn't the existence of a golf course satisfy the requirement and therefore extinguish those rights of reversion?

[MCirba]

Jeff,

Here's the first Brooklyn Daily Eagle article printed August 14, 1907, clearly based on an on-site visit;





Here's the followup article from August 26, 1907, and it seems that it's titled an "official map of the course" that shows "exactly as it will appear except that several additional bunkers are to be added at points not yet determined."  That's why I said it might make for a good "point in time" comparison with David's rendering of the blueprint, with bunkering schemes that seem more refined and more numerous than on this drawing.

[MCirba]

Sorry...my sizing stuff is off.

Here's the relevant parts of that article I was referring to.  Also, from a timeline perspective it's interesting to note that elevations are listed so a contour map was being employed by this juncture.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Or we could just take CBM's word for it...as opposed to Pat's "what would you have done" interpretation 100 years later...

Jim,

Who does that?

[MCirba]

Speaking of taking CBM's contemporaneous word for it, here's much of what was quoted on December 15th, 1906 after he secured 200 acres of land.   Notice he refers to the same four holes he'd found to date that he mentions in "Scotland's Gift" and talks about the work of his committee over the next five months in deciding on the holes to be reproduced and their distances.  
The exact lines would also be staked out after the committee's work in designing the course is complete.

[JESII]

What does anyone think he meant in the last sentence by..."the undulations...are short and billowy, much easier to adapt to a variety of good lies for the ball"?

[MCirba]

Jim,

Not as steep is the way I read it.

[MCirba]

David,

Here's the remainder of the December 15th, 1906 Macdonald quote as he continues discussing the "location" of the 200 acres he secured the previous day.   I read the "hash or bed" quote as saying that this isn't going to be a resort with club accommodations beyond showers and lockers and don't understand why you believe this statement negates any planned private housing lots for the Founders?   In fact, he says there will be sites for housing.

I understand you believe he's referring to the planned development by the Real Estate Company but those 3 to 5 acre parcels would not really be conducive to what was planned to be, and was from the outset, a "National" membership, would they?   Also, didn't the Shinnecock Inn only have 30 rooms?

Note - By this time he also has located a "first tee" location some few hundred yards from the Shinnecock Inn.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

And if I read it right, that is a quote from CBM, no? 

[MCirba]

Correct Jeff...the day he secured the 200 acres.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  Why are you circling though this same material and stale arguments yet again?  Every time we seem to be making progress you try to take us back to square one.  Again . . .

1.  CBM is quoted as saying, "the exact lines will not be staked out until the committee has finished his plans . . .."   He is NOT quoted as saying they have not drawn any lines.  Surely you understand that saying that exact lines will be drawing doesn't mean that Nothing had been done?  Especially when CBM description leaves little doubt that he already had a rough idea of how the course would fit on the land.

2.   Your continued speculation and spinning about the supposed housing component is really ridiculous, considering the developer wrote at the end of 1906. Your theory that 3-5 acre parcels were somehow too big for building lots for CBM's founders would be kind of funny, if only you had meant it to be a joke.

3.  Despite your representations otherwise, CBM did NOT say that the Cape, Alps, Redan, and Eden were the only holes "he'd found to date at this point."  He described the Cape and Eden then indicated that there were other opportunities as well ("there are other opportunites as delightful"), and then he gives a couple of examples ("--for instance to duplicate the Redan Hole . . . . ") and mentions the Alps and the Redan.  He did NOT indicate these were the only "opportunities."

A more reasonable reading is that he chose these particular holes as examples ("for instance") because they were famous and/or spectacular, and he was hyping his course.  What better to mention if he was hyping the course, than three of the most famous holes in the world and what he thought would be a spectacular water hole?

[Bryan Izatt]

"the exact lines will not be staked out until the committee has finished his plans . . .."

Is there any chance that when he was talking about staking out lines that he was referring to the lines of the holes themselves?  For instance a take in the ground where the tee was to go and another where the green was supposed to go.  And others along the intended centreline of the fairway.  His blueprint does show elevations at points along the centrelines.  Could he have not placed stakes at those point to mark places he wanted elevations done. 

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