Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA

[Steve Lang]

David,

How about 35 acres ??... depends where you read...  Google search on 117 Whites Lane, South Hampton, Long Island

CB‘s Ballyshears Sugar Shack… now Bloomberg's "Cottage"

http://hamptons.curbed.com/archives/2011/04/01/surreal_35acre_shinnecock_estate_hits_market_for_225m.php

http://hamptons.curbed.com/archives/2012/06/25/whats_going_on_with_the_ballyshear_estate.php#4fe8695b85216d3e510062fd



But not just any house, of course. For a rumored $20 million, Bloomberg is picking up the storied Ballyshear Estate, a 22,000-square-foot Georgian mansion built in 1910 with 11 bedrooms, 8 bathrooms, and gardens designed by the Olmsted Brothers (a firm run by the son and step-son of Frederick Law Olmsted of Central Park fame). It was originally on 200 acres, which were sold off over the years (the property is now just 35 acres). We can't wait to run into him at Tate's Bakeshop.

http://www.oldlongisland.com/2010/10/ballyshear.html

[DMoriarty]

The source I've seen also suggests he made another overseas trip in late 1906 and early 1907 and following that trip that he winnowed down his template holes from Scotland and his original concept holes to his final 18.  Anybody aware of this trip?  Can it be verified through ship manifests?

I haven't checked the manuscripts, but is it possible that that your source is thinking of the previous winter?   The reason I ask is because CBM had, in a sense, already "winnowed down his template holes" to 18 in the article he published in Outing Magazine in 1906.
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Steve,

In case you missed it, here is a link to an article from 1913 describing the place.  
https://books.google.com/books?id=8vxHAQAAMAAJ&dq=ballyshear&pg=RA6-PA28#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Steve Lang]

Thanks Steve!

Can you show me where CBM planned on putting the 60 or 70 building lots for his founders?  There doesn't seem to be a place for them along the western border.

Not going to touch that until after the next CBM seance

[Steve Lang]

Thanks Steve!

Also, any idea where "Sebonac Creek" is located?  Is it a creek feeding into Bullshead Bay? Or is it just the west inlet into Bullshead Bay?

You can find any waterbody in the US from EPA's Surf Your WAtershed...

http://watersgeo.epa.gov/mwm/?layer=303D&feature=NY-1701-0051&extraLayers=null

[Steve Lang]

David,

thanks for that link.  I missed it on earlier post


Steve,

In case you missed it, here is a link to an article from 1913 describing the place.  
https://books.google.com/books?id=8vxHAQAAMAAJ&dq=ballyshear&pg=RA6-PA28#v=onepage&q&f=false
[/quote]

does anyone know who did Mr Bloomberg's new practice facility??

[JC Jones]

David,

Its possible CBM's estate was originally larger and there were subsequent sell offs of land through the years.

Bryan,

Seems to me, after looking at Steve's graphics that the pro shop is where the 2.5 acre purchase comes from.  Could it be you're confusing the pro shop with the clubhouse.  I know most modern places have them both in the same building but a lot of classic courses have a golf/pro shop separate from the clubhouse.

[MCirba]

David,

The problem with your interpretation of what CBM wrote is that he was writing a narrative, not a chronology.

The most glaring error with your reading is that he staked out the land he wanted in the spring of 1907, which in your reading preceded his securing the land in 1906.

All,

Does anyone know where the 20 acres CBM sold Mr. Sabin in 1920 were located south of Sebonac Road and why /when Macdonald acquired that land in the first place?

Steve,

Nice work.  So,without considering the sometimes considerable gaps between the out and back routing such that exists between 5 and 14, it looks like CBM used at max 165 of 205 acres for his golf course, is that correct.?

Thanks!

[Steve Lang]

  Mike,

I hope you're not leading to asking me to measure 18 hole's areas..    

Yes, gross course OUTLINE area measured in those 4 big areas is 165 acres, including spaces directly between holes and pro shop and clubhouse and the Maint. building there in middle, off end of Whites Lane).  Given a design length of 6100 yards, if an average hole has 80 yards width reserved for planning, that's ~ 100 acres of pure golf course... one can factor off of that to speculate how planning may have proceeded.  But I'd still wait for the next CBM seance.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sven,

Please identify the source so the rest of us can determine the credibility for ourselves.

Sorry, I don't want to do that yet.  I'm still trying to determine what it is I'm seeing.  You can take what I say with a grain of salt, but that's true of most everything posted on here.  Even CBM is known to have misstated things on occasion.

Well, perhaps when you get the deeds you can prove that they did not own the portion of the property that lay between the 1st and 18th holes, on the interior of the course.

Until I see that, I'm going to go on the basis that they did, and the 2.5 acre purchase was for the proshop, in an entirely different area, one located on the borders of the course, not the interior.

Fair enough.  I've said a few times that you may be right.  But, then my source material might be right.  What would we discuss on here if not different interpretations of source material.

With regards to clearing the fairway areas, I'd suggest you read Piper and Oakley again.  You'll get a better understanding of exactly what they were doing in the summer of 1907, and why.  And as David just noted, there is solid evidence the routing was in place by May of 1907.

As for your setting/rising sun theory, it may have been a concern, but it may not have.  I will say there were other courses built at the time and later with the same configuration, including Pebble Beach.

It was just another thought.  Take it or leave it.

Sorry if this sounds dismissive, but you've really not presented anything with any teeth.  Unnamed and unverifiable sources, comparisons to modern day practices, general feelings and the use of the phrase "it seems likely" rank fairly low on my list of reasonable evidence (or whatever you want to call it).

It does sound dismissive.  You can take it or leave it, as you wish.


Sven

[Bryan Izatt]

Thanks Steve!

Also, any idea where "Sebonac Creek" is located?  Is it a creek feeding into Bullshead Bay? Or is it just the west inlet into Bullshead Bay?

You can find any waterbody in the US from EPA's Surf Your WAtershed...

http://watersgeo.epa.gov/mwm/?layer=303D&feature=NY-1701-0051&extraLayers=null

Steve,

Interesting.  Pat will likely chime in shortly that that map is all wrong because Google Earth labels that area West Neck Creek.    


For whatever it is worth the USGS 1904 topo map show Sebonac Creek as paralleling what is now Sebonac Inlet Road down to the swamp where CBM built the original 4th hole - Eden. And, Ram Island was a real island

Re your second acreage map, for what it's worth, the 11.2 acre parcel by Sebonac Inlet (Creek?) is shown as mostly under water with a thin sand bar on the 1904 topo map.

David, if you're trying to figure out where the 4 acres are that CBM bought from Stackpole is 1911, I'd guess that they are probably down around the original 4th green area.  Again, deeds might help place it accurately. 

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Its possible CBM's estate was originally larger and there were subsequent sell offs of land through the years.

Bryan,

Seems to me, after looking at Steve's graphics that the pro shop is where the 2.5 acre purchase comes from.  Could it be you're confusing the pro shop with the clubhouse.  I know most modern places have them both in the same building but a lot of classic courses have a golf/pro shop separate from the clubhouse.

JC,

As I've said a few times now, it could be that's where the 2.5 acres were.  The material I saw said that the Realty Co sold it on condition that CBM only use it for his clubhouse.  Maybe he built his pro shop and practice area on it instead.  If we had the deeds, we could know for sure.

[MCirba]

Speaking of Macdonald ' s narrative description, one thing that always seemed incongruous to me was his statement about wanting to be alone with nature when playing golf.  This, after saying that he had made a previous offer on 120 acres that he would have had to have known would be lined with building lots.  I almost get the sense he was comparing the two sites and mentioning the remoteness as a plus of the second site which was generally considered worthless for real estate and had never been surveyed for housing purposes.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, when CBM determined that he should build a course on 120 acres near the canal, it was within a few weeks of the developer having purchased the property. So the development plan was not yet in place and it was basically as empty as much the rest of the 2000 acre Shinecock Hills property.  You've seen the photos of that section of land.  It may not have been as ideal of a setting, but CBM could've been "alone with nature" there too.

You keep claiming that the Sebonac Neck property was worthless but the facts indicate that this was not the case. CBM paid $200 an acre for the land when the developer had only paid $50 an acre about a year before.  According to CBM, a few years after the developer had offers for over $1000 per acre on the same land.

[MCirba]

David,

The land of Sebonac Neck was considered worthless for farming and was certainly not part of phase one of the developers plans for reasons we can probably speculate about even though those plans covered a few thousand acres of land.   Bryan mentioned a different price than CBM for that purchase and I'm sure it had a relative market value, no land being completely worthless in a strict sense.

However, I do think the developer knew Macdonald was sort of stuck and asked for a lot, saying he'd been offered more for land adjacent.  I think if that were true the developer should have sold because it wasn't until 1917 I believe when Sabin purchased all of it.  Do you know what Sabin paid per acre.  I haven't been able to find out yet.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  Bryan did NOT mention a different price that what CBM had paid for the extra 2.5 acres.  Both said CBM paid about $750 per acre for the 2.5 acre parcel. That is a 15 times more per acre than the $50 per acre that the developer had reportedly paid for the Shinnecock Hills property about five or six years before.  Hardly worthless.

Here again is what CBM said about the 2.5 acre purchase and the offer the developer had for the adjacent property.  

During the past year we found it necessary, in order to protect ourselves, to purchase two and one-half acres of additional land on Peconic Bay at the western end of the golf course. The Shinnecock Hills & Peconic Bay Realty Company were loath to sell us this at a price under $1,000 an acre, but eventually, as expressed by them, to give us their aid, they sold us the two and one half acres for $750 an acre. They have been bid more than $1000 an acre for the land adjoining this two and one-half acres. It can therefore be safely stated that our original purchase of two hundred and five acres would be cheap at $500 an acre, as no land contiguous to ours can today be bought for less than that figure.

As for the rest of your post, I'll go with CBM's representations over your speculation and theories.
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David,

Its possible CBM's estate was originally larger and there were subsequent sell offs of land through the years.

Bryan,

Seems to me, after looking at Steve's graphics that the pro shop is where the 2.5 acre purchase comes from.  Could it be you're confusing the pro shop with the clubhouse.  I know most modern places have them both in the same building but a lot of classic courses have a golf/pro shop separate from the clubhouse.

JC.  Yes it is possible that Ballyshear used to be (much) larger  When Steve had put out that 32 acre figure I thought he meant the size then.

As for the 2.5 acre lot, the weight of the evidence thus far strongly suggests that the 2.5 acre lot was the pro shop area and not the clubhouse.  As you can see in CBM's description above (at western end of golf course, on Peconic Bay, adjacent to developer's land) the description fits the proshop area, not the clubhouse area.  Also this parcel wasn't included as part of the property in the early blueprint, suggesting it was added. Also, it would have made no sense for either the developer or CBM to cut a donut hole out of the middle of CBM's golf course.  

[DMoriarty]

Steve Lang,  

Thanks again for providing those graphics on the with the acreages. In the past Jim Kennedy and I have tried measured the acreage of the golf course only, and we have come up with numbers from about 160 acres to about 180 acres (depending on how much of the rough is included) so in line with yours.  

A possible shortcoming of this approach is that it doesn't take into consideration that, if the property border is within close proximity to the course, then land in between is essentially a buffer, and not really appropriate for any sort of development.  So another way to come at the problem is to subtract out the chunks of land that aren't part of the golf course, which you also did in your post.  

It looks like the only two substantial chunks of land along the border of the course are, 1) the approx. 15 acres right of the 17th hole, and 2) the 11 acres of land used for the range, much of which is covered by a pond.  You also included the 2.5 acres of land at the pro shop, but this was not part of the original purchase.   You also included the aprox. 4 acres of land at the clubhouse, but it is locked by the course.

[DMoriarty]

David,

The problem with your interpretation of what CBM wrote is that he was writing a narrative, not a chronology.

The most glaring error with your reading is that he staked out the land he wanted in the spring of 1907, which in your reading preceded his securing the land in 1906.

There is neither a "problem" nor a "glaring error" with my summary of CBM's chronology of events from Scotland's Gift. And he was writing a narrative which included a chronology of events.

In contrast, your chronology flip-flops events in an way that CBM obviously did not intend, and in a way which directly contradicts the December news accounts. For example, read this excerpt from CBM:
. . . So Jim Whigham and myself spent two or three days riding over it, studying the contours of the ground.  Finally we determined what it was we wanted, providing we could get it reasonably.  It joined Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.   The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as to best serve our purpose. Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted.
We found an Alps; found an ideal Redan; then we discovered a place we could put the Eden hole which would not permit a topped ball to run-up on the green.  Then we found a wonderful water-hole, now the Cape.

Let me ask you . . .  By CBM's account, which event happened first:
     "The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as to best serve our purpose."
OR
     "Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted.  
We found an Alps; found an ideal Redan; then we discovered a place we could put the Eden hole which would not permit a topped ball to run-up on the green.  Then we found a wonderful water-hole, now the Cape. . . ."

The answer is obvious, and it doesn't match your chronology.
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As for your claim that I made a "glaring error" about the date they first staked out the land they wanted, I disagree.  By mid-December CBM had already chosen roughly 205 acres from among the 450 acres, and he provided a detailed physical description of the that parcel he intended to purchase. That would have been pretty hard to do had he not staked it out first.  

CBM did say that the "exact lines" would not be staked out until the plans were complete, but so what?  Do you really think the developer is going to sell an option without the land having been at least roughly marked off to show both parties the subject of the transaction?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Two other thoughts as David and Mike are getting tedious.

The current 1st hole runs to the east and into the rising sun.  The current 18th runs to the west and into the setting sun.  Was it not part of the design ethos in the early 1900's not to do that.  The originally intended 1st and 18th both run north-south avoiding the rising and setting sun issue. Maybe CBM really intended to avoid the sun issue and that was another reason he originally started at the south end of the property.

Bryan,

This is where your ignorance puts you at a disadvantage.

If you were familiar with and understood the topography you'd know that the rising and setting sun aren't a problem.

The source I've seen also suggests he made another overseas trip in late 1906 and early 1907 and following that trip that he winnowed down his template holes from Scotland and his original concept holes to his final 18.  Anybody aware of this trip?  Can it be verified through ship manifests?

Why don't you check with the source that provided that suggestion ?

[Bryan Izatt]

The source I've seen also suggests he made another overseas trip in late 1906 and early 1907 and following that trip that he winnowed down his template holes from Scotland and his original concept holes to his final 18.  Anybody aware of this trip?  Can it be verified through ship manifests?

I haven't checked the manuscripts, but is it possible that that your source is thinking of the previous winter?   The reason I ask is because CBM had, in a sense, already "winnowed down his template holes" to 18 in the article he published in Outing Magazine in 1906.
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The source mentions a first trip in the Mar/May 1906 time frame, and then another subsequent one in late 1906, early 1907.  If you could vet the claim through the manifests, it would be helpful.

[Bryan Izatt]

Two other thoughts as David and Mike are getting tedious.

The current 1st hole runs to the east and into the rising sun.  The current 18th runs to the west and into the setting sun.  Was it not part of the design ethos in the early 1900's not to do that.  The originally intended 1st and 18th both run north-south avoiding the rising and setting sun issue. Maybe CBM really intended to avoid the sun issue and that was another reason he originally started at the south end of the property.

Bryan,

This is where your ignorance puts you at a disadvantage.

If you were familiar with and understood the topography you'd know that the rising and setting sun aren't a problem.

Could you explain how the topography means the rising and setting sun aren't a problem please.

The source I've seen also suggests he made another overseas trip in late 1906 and early 1907 and following that trip that he winnowed down his template holes from Scotland and his original concept holes to his final 18.  Anybody aware of this trip?  Can it be verified through ship manifests?

Why don't you check with the source that provided that suggestion ?

I got it from the source.  What good would asking again do?  Vetting it through the manifests would give independent verification (or not), but then you knew that before your unhelpful response.

[DMoriarty]

The source mentions a first trip in the Mar/May 1906 time frame, and then another subsequent one in late 1906, early 1907.  If you could vet the claim through the manifests, it would be helpful.

Why don't you provide us with the basis for the claim, and then we can go for there?

[MCirba]

David,

Thanks for your response.  I think I've identified the source of our different interpretations about the timeline and I'll try to explain my reasoning in depth later today or tomorrow.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, it was a simple question: By CBM's account, which of those two events happened first? There's no need for yet another long "in depth" retelling of your perception of our differences, I'm just curious to see your answer to that one straightforward question.

[MCirba]

David,

Your simple question is based on assumption that I believe is incorrect. I'll explain more later.

[Bryan Izatt]

For what it's worth the land assembly at NGLA looks to have more parts than I would have thought.  So far, in searching the current tax rolls I've come up with six pieces of property than are taxed separately that are owned by NGLA or National Golf Club.  The main piece is 185.3 acres.  The second is 1.9 acres that appears to be behind the 9th green on Rt 39.  The third is 52.6 acres at 394 Sebonac Rd (Pat might want to search that one on Google Maps).  The other three are 1.4 acres, 7.4 acres, and 4.0 acres. The other four all have street addresses on Sebonac Inlet Rd.

There may be more pieces.  There's a lot of properties on the tax rolls.

Now, if we can find the deeds for these properties ................