[Jeff Fortson]

I'll play the rube here...

I've played NGLA 6 times (belt notch name drop there) so I know the basic land geography. Is the peconic bay deep enough for the "10,000" loads to be brought in by boat?  Is there a bay or port close enough to the course for that method of delivery?  I'm guessing I'm way off as that type of transport was probably either not available or too costly if my embarrassingly bad beard pull thought was even possible.  

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,  
It was deep enough for Yachts, so I suppose barges could have approached.  But they'd still need infrastructure, trucks, and some semblance of roads to get the soil onto the property.

But this whole roads/trucks/RR/boat discussion is a huge distraction.  This wasn't "The Lost World."  There was a road right to the Shinnecock Inn (and well beyond) at it was passable by truck or auto.  And there was a RR, with a station right there.  And there was some semblance of a road out onto the actual property, and these guys had the resources to finish it if need be.  Accessing the property just wasn't as big a deal as some are making it out to be.  As one of the descriptions mentioned, Huckleberry bushes aren't that hard to eradicate.
___________________________________________

Bryan,
If I "scolded" Mike it was because he is twisting the facts regarding what was happening at NGLA in 1909, which I think deserved comment.  But I'll consider your request nonetheless.  We all have our crosses to bear.  I get pretty tired of wading through your banter with Patrick, too.  

As for the roads, you should take a look at the auto club stuff from 1907 and 1908.  It indicates that there was a northern route to the Shinnecock Inn, and that it was a pretty good road.  Another indicates that the road by the Shinnecock Inn was relatively high quality. I think a lot may have changed from when that 1904 Atlas was created to 1907.

As for the location of the planned clubhouse. I have a vague recollection of George saying or writing that CBM lengthened the (current) 9th hole by moving the green back at some point.  If I am remembering correctly and if George was correct, then this might have provided a bit more room.  

[JC Jones]

As to any initial plans to have the clubhouse out by Peconic Bay, the following excerpt from a larger article (posted before in other threads) adds some color.  When the Shinnecock Inn burned down, the options were to rebuilt the "clubhouse" either near the location of the Inn (presuming that they would have had the ability to do so) or out by Peconic Bay.  In either case, they were not set on either location, and presumedly CBM was not particularly tied to either version of the routing, seemingly willing to have the course start either on the 1st or the 10th.

New York Daily Tribune - Aug. 23, 1908

The use of the word "another" reads to me that the Shinnecock Inn was the first.

[Phil Young]

Sven & David,

Thank you for the correction...

[Sven Nilsen]

As to any initial plans to have the clubhouse out by Peconic Bay, the following excerpt from a larger article (posted before in other threads) adds some color.  When the Shinnecock Inn burned down, the options were to rebuilt the "clubhouse" either near the location of the Inn (presuming that they would have had the ability to do so) or out by Peconic Bay.  In either case, they were not set on either location, and presumedly CBM was not particularly tied to either version of the routing, seemingly willing to have the course start either on the 1st or the 10th.

New York Daily Tribune - Aug. 23, 1908

The use of the word "another" reads to me that the Shinnecock Inn was the first.

I don't think anyone is doubting that the plan was to use the Inn as a temporary clubhouse.  What this article points out is that by Aug. 1908, they were not set on the location of where its replacement would go when built.  Because of the fire, they had to address that question earlier than they intended.

Sven

[MCirba]

Re the roads situation, I have crudely overlaid the 1904 topo onto the modern Google aerial and marked the improved roads in red and the unimproved around Sebonac Neck in orange.  I also marked the location of the Shinnecock Inn.  Looks like the SI site was surrounded by a triangle of unimproved dirt tracks in 1904.  Presumably the developer hardened at least one of those tracks for automobile traffic when they built the Inn.  

There were a number of tracks into the NGLA site that probably would have been sufficient, without improvement, for construction activities, at least in decent weather.  I still wonder why there were those tracks up in the Neck in 1904 when there are no structures up there and nothing down to the north side of the tracks except for the SHGC clubhouse.  Where did those tracks go to through the brambles and who would have used them.  The supposedly better properties for cottages and beaches were all supposed to be south of the tracks.

What remains unanswered is where was the site CBM originally intended for his clubhouse near the Shinnecock Inn.  It looks like there were dirt tracks that could have been improved right there to serve a clubhouse site.  The new Shinnecock Inn was supposed to be electrified, so availability of electricity at that site might have been a consideration too.

Bryan,

Thanks for providing that map.

I came upon this 1905 Automobile Club Map that is interesting to compare and contrast.

Interestingly, it doesn't appear to show any roads passable by automobile up into the NGLA property.

For reasons of my interest, it also doesn't show any roadways of signfiicance north of the railroad tracks going back to the Shinnecock Canal that would have negatively impacted CBM's first choice for his ideal golf course near there.

I think what fairly could be said, which I've tried to point out despite attempts to shout me down, is that this area was a work in progress, a "moving picture" between the years of 1905 when the Real Estate company bought the land, CBM's subsequent failed attempt to secure 120 acres, the securing of 200 acres of Sebonac Neck property in late 1906, and soft opening of the course in 1910.  

Somewhat futilely, in my opinion, the discussion keeps getting sidetracked with silly things like what year the Dump Truck got invented (around 1907-08) and whether they would have been deployed, when Macdonald never mentioned using trucks in the first place.

[Steve Lang]

  and animal or horse & buggy one & two-track trails aren't passable by automobiles???   You  haven't been out in the woods lately eh?  

[MCirba]

Steve,

I'm pretty sure they didn't have SUV's back in 1907, but I'm sure someone will argue that as well. 

Seriously, my point is that there are no automobile roads at all shown on the 1905 Road Atlas going up into the land of Sebonac Neck through the NGLA property.

[MCirba]

Brian, et.al.,

As regards the property boundaries, CBM's original blueprint shows different lines from that scorecard map, particularly behind today's 9th green.   Here is a photo from Uncle George Bahto's (and Gib Papazian's) book, "The Evangelist of Golf".   Sorry for the quality.

[Steve Lang]

  Hey Mike, not arguing, just noting that I've been on plenty of wild one and two track paths from new york to california and can easily see auto - truck or any "carrier" being able to traverse and get developed as more traffic is carried... from construction exposures, its amazing what the civil engineers can do and were doing in much more challenging locales that at a swampy area at the turn of the 20th century... running steam powered equipment and horse trains, and the new technology offerings of internal combustion engines..

carry on

[MCirba]

As to any initial plans to have the clubhouse out by Peconic Bay, the following excerpt from a larger article (posted before in other threads) adds some color.  When the Shinnecock Inn burned down, the options were to rebuilt the "clubhouse" either near the location of the Inn (presuming that they would have had the ability to do so) or out by Peconic Bay.  In either case, they were not set on either location, and presumedly CBM was not particularly tied to either version of the routing, seemingly willing to have the course start either on the 1st or the 10th.

New York Daily Tribune - Aug. 23, 1908



I don't think anyone is doubting that the plan was to use the Inn as a temporary clubhouse.  What this article points out is that by Aug. 1908, they were not set on the location of where its replacement would go when built.  Because of the fire, they had to address that question earlier than they intended.

Sven

Sven,

Thanks for that article, which should finally put to rest the pointless speculation as to whether CBM had "always" intended today's site for the NGLA clubhouse, which has veered off into further silliness regarding trucks (which Macdonald never mentioned) and the conditions of roadways in the area.    I won't hold my breath however.

As regards the "road" leading up to today's clubhouse, perhaps Bernard Darwin can tell us more;

"At first the only access to the clubhouse was over an old, uncared-for, rough, rutted, and sandy road, over which the farmers of the former day had carted seaweed and sedge, when those things were considered valuable.  The services of Mr. Seth J. Raynor were again called into requisition and he laid out a beautiful drive, which has been graded and oiled and placed in first class condition and now is ready access to the clubhouse at full speed over one of the best and pleasantest roads in the vicinity.   What would those old seaweed haulers say if they should appear some day and see this road and the new, speedy vehicles that are used on it." - as reproduced in "The Evangelist of Golf"

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

You're still making assumptions.  The article does nothing to dispel the thought that CBM may have always intended the permanent clubhouse to be at the north end of the property at some point, especially when you consider the plans to have a yacht basin put in at that area.

It is possible he always wanted it to be up north, but logistics prevented them from committing to that location from the get go.

If anything, all this tells us is that he wasn't very concerned about the course starting on 1 or 10.

[MCirba]

As regards the extended grow-in period, and what at least some of the imported soil was used for, I decided to go to the CBM "Bible", none of than Uncle George Bahto and Gib Papazian's "The Evangelist of Golf".

From pages 66-67, entitled "Disaster on the Greens" 1907-1908", I've posted relevant paragraphs below;

When Charles Macdonald began building the course in 1907, little was known about proper seed mixtures on putting greens - in particular about growing fine grass on the sandy soil such as at Southampton....

...Seed merchants at that time went by the principle that if many types of grass seed were incorporated into the blend, something was sure to grow.   Consequently, the putting mixtures of the day were a blend of "every sort of seed, from fine fescue to rank meadow grass."  Naturally, the coarsest grasses germinated first, eventually turning the planted areas into ugly, unmanageable clumps.

Macdonald, trusting the knowledge of the seed merchant, used this mixture for the first seeding - with disastrous results.   Robert White, the eminent golf course architect and close friend of Macdonald wrote in 1914:

"At the end of the year's time the greens resembled cabbage patches.   What grasses they contained grew in thick tufts with bare spaces between.   Most of the National's greens had to be made all over again.   Those that were not ploughed up had bad grass in them for several years afterward.

As a result of this debacle, according to White, the opening of the National was thrown back 18 months.   Macdonald was flabbergasted.   During the ensuing months, he initiated a thorough study and established an extensive turf nursery....

...He discovered there was far less loam in the sandy soil of Long Island than there was in similarly situated areas in Scotland and England....

...He reached two conclusions...

...First the soil had to be properly prepared.   In order to preserve moisture in the turf, he had blocks of "meadow sod" turned into the ground.   Limestone, with a quantity of sandy loam, was added to sweeten the soil....

...Because not all greens needed to be plowed under, there were originally several varieties of grass on some of the greens....

...After a year of battling the porous soil of Long Island, it was evident that a complete watering system would be needed.   Out of this necessity, Macdonald designed and installed America's first golf course irrigation system; one capable of delivering 300 gallons per minute to the putting greens and approach areas.   The gravity fed water was delivered from a tower between the 2nd and 16th greens - now the site of the landmark windmill.

In January of 1910, this snippet from a Harper's Weekly article talks more about the irrigation system and how the greens were finally prepared;




Anyone who doesn't think this entire project involved major construction on multiple levels over several years is simply arguing for the sake of argument.

[MCirba]

Mike:

You're still making assumptions.  The article does nothing to dispel the thought that CBM may have always intended the permanent clubhouse to be at the north end of the property at some point, especially when you consider the plans to have a yacht basin put in at that area.

It is possible he always wanted it to be up north, but logistics prevented them from committing to that location from the get go.

If anything, all this tells us is that he wasn't very concerned about the course starting on 1 or 10.

Sven,

If both sites were still being considered viable in August of 1908, as in "either at the present site or over nearer the Peconic side.", how could Macdonald have "always" intended the present site to be his clubhouse?

[JC Jones]

As to any initial plans to have the clubhouse out by Peconic Bay, the following excerpt from a larger article (posted before in other threads) adds some color.  When the Shinnecock Inn burned down, the options were to rebuilt the "clubhouse" either near the location of the Inn (presuming that they would have had the ability to do so) or out by Peconic Bay.  In either case, they were not set on either location, and presumedly CBM was not particularly tied to either version of the routing, seemingly willing to have the course start either on the 1st or the 10th.

New York Daily Tribune - Aug. 23, 1908

The use of the word "another" reads to me that the Shinnecock Inn was the first.

I don't think anyone is doubting that the plan was to use the Inn as a temporary clubhouse.  What this article points out is that by Aug. 1908, they were not set on the location of where its replacement would go when built.  Because of the fire, they had to address that question earlier than they intended.

Sven

I agree.  In fact, the article's mention of building one on a site nearer the Peconic side suggests contemplation of the site where the current clubhouse sits.  Though, it does not necessarily "prove" that as the plan all along.

[MCirba]

Regarding some of the members playing/trying out the course sometime in 1909 before the official "Soft Opening" in July 1910, I'm not sure how this is either uncommon or surprising?   The golf course certainly wasn't completed at that point...in fact, it was an "improvised" golf course.   Here's what Macdonald said about that in "Scotland's Gift"; 

"It was not until 1909 that some twenty friends played over the
course in an improvised condition, our club-house a tent. The
course was very rough and, as I have said, distinctly shorter than it
is now.."

That's what we're arguing about?   Seriously?? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sven and Mike,

Thanks for those two points of information. I think the blueprint has the accurate property line, whereas the earlier graphci was truncated simply to fit a certain sheet size.  Having left a large site for the clubhouse next to the Inn 99% proves that was plan A in CBM's mind. All the planning was left to him, but of course, his members and founders were around by the fire, and obviously, some probably lobbied for the current site.  We can't know how strongly in favor of it CBM was, other than the fact that it ended up that way.

Interesting notion on the 9th having been lengthened.  The stick drawing shows 9G and 10T aligned, but it is a newspaper graphic. The site plan graphic shown often actually has the 9th beyond the 10th tee, and that was a very early version of the plan, which makes it seem as if it was there from nearly the beginning.

Thanks for all the truck info.  Brings to mind a childhood moment when my brother and I - both interested in trains - sort of sneered at another kid at the magazine rack who was perusing "truck world" (may have been "bus world", but in either case, we felt vastly superior to him and his "nerd" interests. LOL.

It will be interesting to see if Patrick still provides his NGLA "evidence", and to see how it compares to the original working blueprint, property line wise.

[MCirba]

David,

Your posts are informative for me, as are Mike's.  Do you suppose you could cut down on the scolding of Mike in every post?  I understand you don't like or respect him.  You don't have to reiterate it with every post.  It's no big deal if he wants to think construction is from purchase to formal opening and you want to think of it as not including grass growing.  It doesn't rate the continual scolding.

Bryan,

Thanks, but that's ok.   Nice to see David is going to "consider" your request.    

When I came back to this forum based on some of the great research I was seeing from Sven and Jim Kennedy and you and Joe Bausch, as well as Ran's January dictate to have this site focused more on golf course architecture, golf's most beloved gentleman told me to simply "have fun".

I was hopeful that everyone here had moved along after several years from past grievances but quickly learned differently.   Since my return, I have been followed around on virtually every thread I post on followed (usually within less than an hour, sometimes less than 5 minutes) by an insulting, argumentative retort from David Moriarty.   To be honest, in the few months I've been back I'm not sure if David has posted on any other thread except one's with my involvement.

I've tried to ignore him at first, but then was accused of ignoring his questions.   I tried civil discussion and have avoided the trap of getting into hurling personal insults back at him as some have urged me.   Others have gone to Ran and have urged me to, as well, but I figure he has more important things to do than referee this site.   Here's one comment sent to Ran;

Date: 04/22/2015 1:37 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Ran Morrissett <rmorrissett@cabotlinks.com>
Subject: Reported post: Re: Early Golf Pros who designed courses and supervised construction - Part Deux by DMoriarty
The following post, "Re: Early Golf Pros who designed courses and supervised construction - Part Deux" by DMoriarty has been reported by XXXXXXXXX on a board you moderate:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=60895.msg1444313#msg1444313

The reporter has made the following comment:
this is getting silly.  After every Cirba quote, this guy has to make some snide remark.  Enough already.

Regards,
The Golf Club Atlas Team.

The sad part is that I value David's research and share his obvious interest in historical materials even if we often don't often agree on how best to accurately analyze those materials from a historical perspective.

At this stage, I'm not sure how to proceed except to continue to try and participate on topics of interest and trust that others will see my intent is positive and my materials are factual.   I'm certainly not going to worry too much about this, nor will I let one apple spoil the bunch here.   If this is how David chooses to spend his life, that's his business, but he truly shouldn't behave like this and then expect me to engage with him further.

I did see this the other day and I had to chuckle.   I think we all can get a bit like this at times but I think David's behavior is beyond ridiculous and counter-productive.   Thanks for trying.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, is the above what you have in mind when you say you are just here trying to positively contribute the conversation?  Is being passive-aggressive somehow superior in your mind to being direct?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  I'll try to keep my frustration with your methodology down to a minimum, but it is very difficult when you misrepresent the source material at every turn.  I'll start with your most recent "factual" claims.

Regarding some of the members playing/trying out the course sometime in 1909 before the official "Soft Opening" in July 1910, I'm not sure how this is either uncommon or surprising?   The golf course certainly wasn't completed at that point...in fact, it was an "improvised" golf course.  Here's what Macdonald said about that in "Scotland's Gift";  

"It was not until 1909 that some twenty friends played over the
course in an improvised condition, our club-house a tent. The
course was very rough and, as I have said, distinctly shorter than it
is now.."

That's what we're arguing about?   Seriously??  

1.  That is NOT what CBM said.   What he actually said was " . . some twenty friends played over the course in an improvised competition."  Not in an improvised condition, and NOT on an "'improvised' golf course" as you claim.  There is a big difference between an improvised competition and an "'improvised' golf course."

2.  Your representation that this was not the real course because it had been shortened and "improvised" is false.  According to CBM, the course they played over in 1909 was 6100 yards, which is consistent with his original plans for the course.

3.   You quote and capitalize the phrase "Soft Opening" which creates the impression that this event was actually called the "Soft Opening."  I don't recall seeing that terminology.  Could you provide us the direct quote?  Or if their is none, could you please quit offering up this specific terminology as if it more than just your interpretation?  Thanks.  

4.    In the past (at all times before today, in fact) you've taken the position that the improvised tournament described in Scotland's Gift actually took place in 1910 (not 1909) and that this was the so-called soft opening.   Now that you have finally accepted the 1909 date as correct, why are changing your mind on the importance of this early tournament?   Except for the bit about Ward's score, CBM's description is remains the same.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Thanks for posting the blueprint.

Here is the boundary from the blueprint overlaid in yellow at the southern end of the property.

Looks like more room behind the 9th green for a clubhouse that would have been near the Shinnecock Inn.  And the unimproved track on the 1904 topo would have passed right by the end.  Now, if only we were sure that the blueprint is correct.   

[Jeff Fortson]

Just out of curiosity, what is "The Golf Club Atlas Team" and who is on it?

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,  It is apparently a highly specialized team of former and current members set up in large part to monitor and critique my posts.  I hear they have quite a behind-the-scenes email thread, and I get the occassional bizarre and threatening email from their creepy ringleader reminding me of this. If you want in on the fun I can try to pull some strings and get you in, but I am not sure I have much pull.
___________________________________________________________

Can someone help me interpret the original blue print from ToG?  I see plenty of golf features but I cannot find where they mythical 90 acres of real estate has been set aside for the founders?  Can someone point to where the supposed homesites were available?  Because it looks almost as if that wasn't really CBM's intent.    

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

You are creating a straw horse to continue an argument. Everyone knows there was never a formal land plan of 1.5Ac lots. 
The only questions are how serious he was about it, and when the idea fell by the wayside. No point in bringing it up for the umpteenth time, is there?

[MCirba]

We know from many accounts that the land Macdonald secured in December of 1905 was completely overgrown with various waist-high growth at the time he discovered it, such that it was only passable on horseback.  Earlier I asked if folks thought that the land of NGLA was cleared of this debris prior to Macdonald securing the land or after.  

Given what sounds below to be quite the significant effort requiring considerable manpower, and all of the associated expense, I have to believe that it was cleared after Macdonald secured the land.   Would anyone disagree?  After all, why would he go to such a large effort and expenditure on land where he had no financial control?   Would the landowner even permit it without a deal in hand?

My interest in this area relates to the golf course planning and routing process as well as what was possible to do at each stage of NGLA’s architectural development and subsequent construction and when.   Frankly, it’s a fascinating topic.

In a 1906 article in Outing Magazine, Macdonald described how important it was to find the right sort of soil and landforms and felt that was half the battle;

Studying the above qualities in detail, there can be but one
opinion as to the nature of the soil the course should be built upon,
as well as the contour of the surface of the fairway green-running
as this should in more or less gentle undulations as at St. Andrews,
breaking in hillocks in a few places, more or less bold in certain
parts as at Sandwich and North Berwick.

The three courses above mentioned fulfill the ideal in this respect.
There can be no really first class golf course without such
material to work upon. Securing such a course is really more than
half the battle…Having the material in hand to work upon, the
completion of an ideal course becomes a matter of experience,
gardening and mathematics.

Here’s Macdonald in December of 1906 the day he secured the land describing what lies ahead in coming months.



This snippet from an article in Harper’s Weekly in January 1910 describes how the land was cleared and what events preceded that clearing.   It also retrospectively discusses how much effort Macdonald had to put into his agronomic efforts at growing turfgrass.



Finally, here’s Macdonald summarizing those efforts over 20 years later in “Scotland’s Gift”



Read and understood in the proper context, it’s interesting to see the nuances of the developing story at each point in time.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

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