Was C.B. Macdonald's routing of NGLA

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Nice try... But that truck is ca. 1915 and not anything like the trucks used during the 1907-1910 period when the course was being built and the dirt being hauled.

Phil, sorry, but, you don't know what you're talking about.
Companies like Mack, Ford and International, the biggest names in trucks had trucks similar to the one Jim Kennedy posted.
Mack Truck had a 7 ton dump truck in 1907, just the kind of truck that would be perfect for delivering loads of soil to NGLA

In 1907 they were still selling automobiles that ran on STEAM! The advancements in automobile and truck technology year to year during that time frame and through the 30s was quite dramatic.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Mack, Ford & International had large trucks operational

Yet, even if you want to believe that that type of truck was used, take a good look at it for it isn't a truck with a open bed and the cover is over a series of drawers which open on each side of the truck...

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
In 1907 Mack had a 7 ton dump truck, a truck perfect for delivering dirt to NGLA.

This would never be used to haul dirt..

But, a 1907, 7 ton, Mack Dump Truck would be perfect for the job.

By the way, no thoughts as to the PICTURE used in the advertisement as the OPTIMAL view of what the "good roads" looked like?
Earlier photos were posted of dirt roads on Long Island and those photos showed motor vehicles traversing those roads quite easily.

[MCirba]

Pat,

I'm tired of doing all the work.  

Since you brought it up why don't you tell us when they cleared the land, which you know was unwalkable.   Before or after securing the land in December 1906?

And since you brought it up, how do you think they cleared the land?  Bulldozers?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Macdonald never mentioned trucks and it seems more likely that some sort of horse-drawn carts were employed.  Here's some state of the art trucks used for hauling in 1907. 
http://www.google.com/search?q=1907+truck&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=FxldPYbY5m4rkM%253A%252CdNq9W6Cj_XmVWM%252C_%253BWkjOFQM-zHBaEM%253A%252CrieGeKBgbhXnKM%252C_%253BP6WGPrsduiO5pM%253A%252CAHyStjYILjWL9M%252C_%253B_WDvvOTqty9AGM%253A%252CAHyStjYILjWL9M%252C_&usg=__i0ot0GjcNpuGcwJEjrsoWQCrU_M%3D&sa=X&ei=U9JUVar0FeuIsQSh4YHgBA&ved=0CCgQ7Ak

Mike,

Please post the photo of the 1907 Mack 7 ton Dump Truck, an ideal truck for carrying and delivering 10,000 loads of dirt.

Thanks

[MCirba]

Patrick,

Nope, no need to post your imaginary "dump" truck because such a thing wasn't invented by 1907.  Perhaps once you answer my questions I'll post that thing you think is a dumptruck.

Instead, regarding the question of when the course actually opened for play, this series of dated (publication date) articles provide a pretty clear timeline.

May 25th, 1908




January 22, 1910




May 10th, 1910




July 3rd, 1910 (sorry it's such poor quality)




August, 1910

[DMoriarty]

Nice try Mike, but there were also reports and even photos of golfers playing the course in 1909.

And nothing you've posted addresses my point:  Major construction of the golf course did not take 3.5 years as you keep implying.  Most of that time they were trying to get grass to grow.  

[DMoriarty]

Also, Mike, I see that you are unfortunately back to your frustrating habit of posting articles without proper citations.  From what publications did each of those snippets come?

[JC Jones]

Mike,

The January 1910 article talks of the course being playable and is discussing getting it into prime condition.  Also, the 1908 article talks of the money already spent and golfers going out to visit the course.

I think David's assertion that the grass and conditioning were the issues is a better assumption.

[DMoriarty]

Here is a photo of John Ward playing on the then 3rd green, published Oct. 23, 1909 in the NY Tribune.



On October 3, 1909 the same paper had published a photo of golfers playing the Alps hole (then the 12th.)

The frustrating thing is that we've been through this many times before, yet you still trot out the same points after they have been specifically disproven.

[MCirba]

JC,

Yes, a grow - in is obviously part of any golf course construction project.  I'm not sure why that isn't obvious?  

And Macdonald did have issues getting grass to grow so likely he was near done with the shaping phase in and around the various August 1908 articles that discussed what had been accomplished to date, 20 months after acquiring the property.

Still, the course did not soft open til July 1910 and even then conditions were a bit rough.

My comment was in the context of your question about existing roads and access, etc. and the difference between Dec 1906 when Macdonald secured the land and 3.5 years later being a moving target in light of your original question of the roads in the immediate area.

[MCirba]

David,

Why is it news that some members and friends hit balls around various holes that may have been ready sooner than others?

I have a few pics that show the state of conditions in late 1909 that I'll post tomorrow if you think it's newsworthy.  That still has nothing to do with the overall course construction project from inception to opening in July 1910 that by definition includes the grow - in phase.

[Phil Young]

Pat,

Thanks for setting me straight when you wrote, "Phil, sorry, but, you don't know what you're talking about. Companies like Mack, Ford and International, the biggest names in trucks had trucks similar to the one Jim Kennedy posted. Mack Truck had a 7 ton dump truck in 1907, just the kind of truck that would be perfect for delivering loads of soil to NGLA."

Then again maybe its YOU who needs setting straight!  

Let's take a look at the "Trucks" that Mack was selling during the years 1904-1909, the years that trucks were "hauling dirt" according to you. They wouldn't have been hauling dirt in 1910, or if so just very little as the course was basically completed and was in the grtow-in phase.
 

 
A bit hard to carry dirt in that... Then there was the next one from 1906...



I think that truck wasn't made for hauling dirt...

You said that Mack had a "7-ton dump truck" in 1907? Not according to the history portion of their website... which is where these photographs come from...

Well then, what about Ford... What trucks were Ford manufacturing in 1907? The answer is NONE! The first truck of any type that Ford manufactured was the 1917 Model TT. It was named that because it used a Model T frame and body with a cab on the end of it. Here a photograph of the 1919 Model TT:



Not only wouldn't it be made until 10 years after the dirt was hauled at NGLA, it, too, wasn't built to hold dirt in the back...

Finally, there's International. This is the only historical information shown on their website: "The merger of McCormick Harvesting Machine Company and the Deering Harvester Company in 1902 resulted in the formation of the International Harvester Company (IH) of Chicago, Illinois, which over the next three-quarters of a century evolved to become a diversified manufacturer of farming equipment, construction equipment, gas turbines, trucks, buses, and related components. During World War II, International Harvester produced the M-series of military trucks that served the Marine Corps and the U.S. Navy as weapons carriers, cargo transporters and light artillery movement. Today, Navistar produces International brand military vehicles through its affiliate Navistar Defense."

I can't imagine that they were creating trucks that were anymore advanced than Mack and their trucks certainly were not the type that you've imagined them to be.

Pat, my whole point with this was your insistence that the "good roads" mentioned in the article referred to a "highway system" when they clearly were talking only about some recently built, barely wide enough for two automobiles to pass each other, dirt roads.

The reason I think that is important is because it makes the accomplishment of building NGLA as much an engineering marvel as an golf course architectural one.

[MCirba]

JC,

Related to the question of construction and grow in do you think MacDonald realized that some of the land was impoverished before or after he tried to grow grass on it?

Phil,

Nice stuff.  however this is just another Patrick wild hair about nothing. McDonald never said a single word about trucks.  Pat is still trying to advance a ridiculous theory that there was a major road system in place at the time McDonald discovered the property.

[JC Jones]

JC,

Yes, a grow - in is obviously part of any golf course construction project.  I'm not sure why that isn't obvious?  

And Macdonald did have issues getting grass to grow so likely he was near done with the shaping phase in and around the various August 1908 articles that discussed what had been accomplished to date, 20 months after acquiring the property.

Still, the course did not soft open til July 1910 and even then conditions were a bit rough.

My comment was in the context of your question about existing roads and access, etc. and the difference between Dec 1906 when Macdonald secured the land and 3.5 years later being a moving target in light of your original question of the roads in the immediate area.

Mike,

What are your thoughts?  Do you think the majority of the dirt brought in would have been done so by 1908 as the shaping would have been done by then?

[MCirba]

JC,

I honestly don't know. I think it would all depend upon the answer to the question I just asked you above. MacDonald talked about bringing in the soil in the context of the impoverishment of the land so it's hard to know if that was before or after the first attempt to grow grass.

[JC Jones]

Mike,

I think we asked each other just about the same question at the same time.

When he spoke of bringing in manure, that would not be to fill in swamps but rather, to grow plants.  Likewise topsoil.

[MCirba]

JC,

I have a bit more related I can share tomorrow, thanks.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's the 1907 Mack 7, took me 6 seconds to find it on GIS.

[Sven Nilsen]

As to any initial plans to have the clubhouse out by Peconic Bay, the following excerpt from a larger article (posted before in other threads) adds some color.  When the Shinnecock Inn burned down, the options were to rebuilt the "clubhouse" either near the location of the Inn (presuming that they would have had the ability to do so) or out by Peconic Bay.  In either case, they were not set on either location, and presumedly CBM was not particularly tied to either version of the routing, seemingly willing to have the course start either on the 1st or the 10th.

New York Daily Tribune - Aug. 23, 1908

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's the 1907 Mack 7, took me 6 seconds to find it on GIS.

The picture is a print done in the 1960's, I believe.  The artist labeled it 1907, but according to the Mack website they did not make a 7 ton dump truck.  They did make a 7.5 ton one, but not until 1911-16.  Their earliest dump truck of any size was 1908.  Following is Mack's list of the early dump trucks they built, how many and when.  Hopefully they are not in error about their own trucks.

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  I found the same thing, but I am not sure whether that is an actual truck or a artistic rendering of a model, and I am not sure the model is correctly dated.

I see Bryan helped clarify.  They made a 5 ton dump truck beginning in 1908, a photo is in my link below.   Other companies also made dumptrucks dating back to 1907 at least.
________________________________________________________

David,

Why is it news that some members and friends hit balls around various holes that may have been ready sooner than others?

Members and friends hit balls around various holes?   Do you ever tire of shamelessly twisting and spinning the facts?  Doesn't it get even a little embarrassing for you?  

According to CBM (and various accounts) they "first played tentatively over the course" in 1909, from the regular tees at 6100 yards.   The NY Tribune has photos of them golfing a number of other holes in addition to those mentioned above, including the Sahara (September 5, 1909) and the Road Hole (September 19, 1909).  

CBM also mentioned in SG that they played an informal match play tournament over the course in 1909.  W.T. Tuckerman beat Herreshoff in the finals of the first flight of eight, and CBM beat Robert Watson "one up" in the finals of the second flight of eight.

[This was not the same tournament as the well-publicized Invitational in July of 1910.  In 1910 CBM played in the first flight, which was won by Herreshoff, and S.K. DeForrest of Shinnecock beat Frank Thomas in the finals of the second flight.  Neither Tuckerman nor Watson played in the the second tournament.  (I mention this because in Scottland's Gift, CBM mistakenly said that John Ward, who played in both tournaments, had shot a 74(!) in the 1909 tournament, when in reality he shot a 74 (with a 32(!!) on the current front nine) in the 1910 tournament.)]

So they weren't only golfing at NGLA in 1909, they even had a tournament.  

Will you try to spin it as they were just hitting a balls around more various holes, or will you take CBM's word for it that they were golfing the course?  You are shameless.

I have a few pics that show the state of conditions in late 1909 that I'll post tomorrow if you think it's newsworthy.  That still has nothing to do with the overall course construction project from inception to opening in July 1910 that by definition includes the grow - in phase.

By your definition construction may include grow-in, but a more reasonable understanding is that sitting around waiting for grass to grow isn't the same thing as constructing the golf course, especially when the issue at hand involves actually working on the golf course with trucks and such.

You can make up your own definitions about what constitutes "construction" or "a soft opening," but if they are golfing on the course and even holding tournaments on a course, then it is misleading for you to repeatedly suggest that they were still in the throws of heavy construction.
___________________________________

As for JC's original question, According to CBM (and various accounts) they began to develop the property in the Spring of 1907.  So they needed access roads onto the property at that point.  (Contrary to Mike's suggestions there were already roads to the property.)  If roads on the property did not yet exist, then they would have have to create them.  All this nonsense about a 3.5 year construction period is just a distraction.  
_____________________________________________________________

Same goes for the rest of this stuff about how there were no roads, dump trucks didn't exist, and not even dirt hauling trucks existed.  They existed.  Here again is a link to the January 1, 1909 journal article listing Manhattan's (Mack's) current offerings.  Notice the Five Ton Dump Truck.
https://books.google.com/books?id=xq0yAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA168&dq=dumptruck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VtJUVc78G4K9ggSbrIKoCw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dump%20truck&f=false

Here is a link to a 1908 article about dump trucks (called "dumping wagons") which noted that "motor vehicles with dumping bodies are frequently built in this country and abroad, especially where bulk loads are to be handled."  The article also mentions such vehicles are often custom built to specification for the type of the job.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZFIgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA293&dq=chase+dumping+wagons&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b2hVVcGNBa7isAS74IGQCQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Here is yet another article on a dump truck, this one from January 1908 spotlighting a dump truck (made in 1907) which had been customized to haul ash.  (The same company also sold dump trucks for other purposes.)
https://books.google.com/books?id=A3dHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA130&dq=%22dumping+mechanism%22+springfield&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g2pVVfWLI4HHsQS3gYGYCw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

There were also a bunch of different types of regular old trucks which were used for hauling dirt, manure, or anything else. [See Bryan's list, for example.]  

I don't know whether at NGLA CBM used a wagon, a truck, a dump truck, or even a RR.   But roads existed or could readily by built.  Trucks existed.  RR's existed.  The arguments to the contrary are ridiculous.

[Edited on May 17 to correct name of runner-up in 1909 tourney from Travis to Herreshoff.]

[Jeff Fortson]

Have to admit, this is a pretty good thread.

[DMoriarty]

Is that a picture of you, Jeff?  You look different than when I last saw you. Wiser.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Your posts are informative for me, as are Mike's.  Do you suppose you could cut down on the scolding of Mike in every post?  I understand you don't like or respect him.  You don't have to reiterate it with every post.  It's no big deal if he wants to think construction is from purchase to formal opening and you want to think of it as not including grass growing.  It doesn't rate the continual scolding.

Re the dump truck thing, I'll just say that if CBM was using dump trucks in 1907-08 then he was a very early adopter.  One wonders whether he contracted laborers and equipment and managed the construction or whether he contracted a construction company to undertake the build with his design?  It seems unlikely he was buying dump trucks, or horses and wagons or rail cars.  I also wonder where he got his 10,000 loads of soil.  I suppose there were landscape supply companies in those days.  Presumably it wasn't clean fill from other construction sites.

[Jeff Fortson]

Is that a picture of you, Jeff?  You look different than when I last saw you. Wiser.

Nope. A touch wiser now but can't resist an opportunity to insert a good beard pull pic.

And I meant what I said... This is a great thread.

[Bryan Izatt]

Re the roads situation, I have crudely overlaid the 1904 topo onto the modern Google aerial and marked the improved roads in red and the unimproved around Sebonac Neck in orange.  I also marked the location of the Shinnecock Inn.  Looks like the SI site was surrounded by a triangle of unimproved dirt tracks in 1904.  Presumably the developer hardened at least one of those tracks for automobile traffic when they built the Inn. 

There were a number of tracks into the NGLA site that probably would have been sufficient, without improvement, for construction activities, at least in decent weather.  I still wonder why there were those tracks up in the Neck in 1904 when there are no structures up there and nothing down to the north side of the tracks except for the SHGC clubhouse.  Where did those tracks go to through the brambles and who would have used them.  The supposedly better properties for cottages and beaches were all supposed to be south of the tracks.

What remains unanswered is where was the site CBM originally intended for his clubhouse near the Shinnecock Inn.  It looks like there were dirt tracks that could have been improved right there to serve a clubhouse site.  The new Shinnecock Inn was supposed to be electrified, so availability of electricity at that site might have been a consideration too.