GolfNow continues to try and destroy golf business

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brent,

If you buy a super low priced time from Golfnow you can just forego the use of the cart. 

It's a smart idea to do what JK did and check the online bookers first, then call the club. Nice surprises at many courses, and you know who's getting paid.

I've only twice in my life been turned away from a golf course after driving all the way there and unloading my bag from the trunk. Both times my plan was to pay whatever the "with cart" fee was and then walk anyway. After the second time, I no longer show up unless I've been assured to my satisfaction that I will, in fact, be allowed to play when I get there.

I am not a very cost-sensitive golfer. It's all about being allowed to play at all versus wasting time, gas and aggravation on a fool's errand.

Calling before traveling to play is SOP, no?   

[Brent Hutto]

Brent,

If you buy a super low priced time from Golfnow you can just forego the use of the cart. 

It's a smart idea to do what JK did and check the online bookers first, then call the club. Nice surprises at many courses, and you know who's getting paid.

I've only twice in my life been turned away from a golf course after driving all the way there and unloading my bag from the trunk. Both times my plan was to pay whatever the "with cart" fee was and then walk anyway. After the second time, I no longer show up unless I've been assured to my satisfaction that I will, in fact, be allowed to play when I get there.

I am not a very cost-sensitive golfer. It's all about being allowed to play at all versus wasting time, gas and aggravation on a fool's errand.

Calling before traveling to play is SOP, no?   

Hence my unfamiliarity with GolfNow. If I'm going to call and make arrangements anyway, not much help from going online first. Other than to look up the phone number.

[Jordan Caron]

Jordan,
Not interested in great marketing minds...GolfNow sells their discounted rounds for less than a course can operate.  GolfNow is responsiible for giving any of their discounted rounds customers rainchecks but the customer thinks they are dealing w the golf course.  GolfNow sells the customer a tee time which might be combined with another player they also sold to fill the same time but the golfer thinks the golf course can give them their on personal tee time since the course is not full...AND GolfNow might be making over $25,000 a year on a course....no one would have a problem paying them a fee for booking a tee time.  The barter is the problem.

We get it Mike. My point is that if the industry had some better sales and marketing ideas, they wouldn't resort to GolfNow and discount tee times. That to me is the root of this GN barter problem. Courses get desperate and have no new ideas so they follow the heard and go to GolfNow.

[Sean_A]

Strange post Mike.  You are implying unfair business practices when course management make their own business decisions.  Get back to the root of the issue.  The single biggest reason for the erosion of the golf business is the economy...not a tee booking company. You seem to dislike munis because it is unfair competition, but you also dislike capital enterprise because....it lowers green fees?  Sounds like you want privately owned public courses to have some sort of competitive protection.

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

We get it Mike. My point is that if the industry had some better sales and marketing ideas, they wouldn't resort to GolfNow and discount tee times. That to me is the root of this GN barter problem. Courses get desperate and have no new ideas so they follow the heard and go to GolfNow.

They could have all the marketing and sales ideas they wanted and they would still use GN because they are afraid not to...it's like a business convention such as the PGA show.  Vendors don't come because it helps them.  They come because they are afraid not to be there if the other guy is.  It is usually a management company or a golf pro employee that goes for GN.  Once an individual owner realizes they usually get out. 

Strange post Mike.  You are implying unfair business practices when course management make their own business decisions.  Get back to the root of the issue.  The single biggest reason for the erosion of the golf business is the economy...not a tee booking company. You seem to dislike munis because it is unfair competition, but you also dislike capital enterprise because....it lowers green fees?  Sounds like you want privately owned public courses to have some sort of competitive protection.

Nope.  Not saying anything is unfair.  Of course I don't like munis if there is an abundant supply of privately run courses in the area and the muni competes unfairly with them.   You are correct in your economy analysis.  That is the #1 thing.  It's not that I want privately held public courses to have some sort of competitive advantage as much as I don't want the munis to have some competitive advantage.  And they do.   It's not a strange post.  Mainly wanted to make people aware that the course does not get a dime from the discounted fees of GN.  As someone else has mentioned, if people would call the courses directly they would fair better.   Like it or not it is bad for golf.  The next thing you will hear regarding GN will be when the equipment suppliers begin to lose sales to individual shops because GN is selling at a better deal.  I know one fertilizer company that listed with them and is already losing sales to long time customers until they can get away from GN. 

[Sean_A]

Mike

I guess your donation to GCA.com is part of your marketing budget 

Ciao

[Dave Doxey]

How can GolfNow be at fault?  It's hard to understand how a course can sign a contract and then complain about the terms.

Tough economic times and the decline in the popularity of the game are forcing course operators to either run their business well or suffer the consequences.  Price & product quality.

Internet price transparency helps consumers and leads to the best product winning.  Consumer course reviews are a whole other heated discussion.  Wait until they become more prevalent!

[John Kavanaugh]

How can GolfNow be at fault?  It's hard to understand how a course can sign a contract and then complain about the terms.

Tough economic times and the decline in the popularity of the game are forcing course operators to either run their business well or suffer the consequences.  Price & product quality.

Internet price transparency helps consumers and leads to the best product winning.  Consumer course reviews are a whole other heated discussion.  Wait until they become more prevalent!

That's like asking how WalMart can be at fault. People who don't value loyalty can go F themselves, and soon will as no one else will be around.

[Dave Doxey]

How can GolfNow be at fault?  It's hard to understand how a course can sign a contract and then complain about the terms.

Tough economic times and the decline in the popularity of the game are forcing course operators to either run their business well or suffer the consequences.  Price & product quality.

Internet price transparency helps consumers and leads to the best product winning.  Consumer course reviews are a whole other heated discussion.  Wait until they become more prevalent!

That's like asking how WalMart can be at fault. People who don't value loyalty can go F themselves, and soon will as no one else will be around.

Isn't "loyalty" really a consumer being willing to pay a higher price for what they perceive as higher quality?  The GolfNow model does nothing to disrupt that.

[John Kavanaugh]

No, loyalty is knowingly paying fair value when you can get a better deal. It's like paying a fair wage to a long term employee when someone younger and cheaper could take their place. It's an antiquated ideal.

I have been speaking against raters taking free golf for years because I felt this coming. Now that everyone can basically play for free greensfees lost suddenly matter. Not so long ago the party line on this site was that letting a golfer play for free didn't cost a course a dime. Hello closures.

[Jon Wiggett]

The deal would make sense if GN guaranteed selling and paying for an agreed number of tee times each day however the deal offered makes absolutely no sense business wise for a golf club in the greenfee business.

Jon

[Andrew Buck]

The deal would make sense if GN guaranteed selling and paying for an agreed number of tee times each day however the deal offered makes absolutely no sense business wise for a golf club in the greenfee business.

Jon

There have to be thousands of courses that have decided to stay on the system after their 2 year initial obligation.  It can't possibly be bad business for all of them. 

[Mike_Young]

The deal would make sense if GN guaranteed selling and paying for an agreed number of tee times each day however the deal offered makes absolutely no sense business wise for a golf club in the greenfee business.

Jon

There have to be thousands of courses that have decided to stay on the system after their 2 year initial obligation.  It can't possibly be bad business for all of them. 

Many don't think it out and have no idea what is happening....easier not to fight it....

[Brent Hutto]

So Mike are you basically saying that GolfNow is a long-term bad influence on the future of the golf-course business even if it's a good deal in the short run?

If so, I think it's totally understandable that lots of courses are more interested in keeping the doors open and grass mowed over the next 12 months than in what shape the industry will find itself in five year's time.

Because I still haven't read/heard of any meaningful alternative to the GolfNow barter system if a small, budget-constrained golf course operation wants to offer online tee time bookings. It sounds like there are two factors at work here:

1) Many courses feel if they don't offer online tee time booking they will left behind or ignored by a portion of their potential market.
2) If they feel they must offer online tee time bookings they have no resources to gin up and maintain an ongoing booking engine without using GolfNow.

So are you saying they ought to go with alternative #1 and Just Say No to online bookings?

Or do you know of a cheap and easy alternative way of offering online bookings without bartering to GolfNow and ceding control to them over the customer relationship?

[Mike_Young]

Brent,
Presently there is not a good online tee time system out there.  Once one gets any market share it is purchased by GolfNow.  GolfNow will become a larger factor than the USGA if people are not careful.  The number one thing going for them is the advertising they can have from Golf Channel since it owns them.  They will end up with enough buying power to control fertilizers, pro shop equipment and will have their own handicap system...
I think in a small town you dont need an online tee sheet but ina town the size of Atlanta an online tee sheet makes golf a commodity and it controls the pricing....it's a bad thing for all except GN.
So many owners look at it as costing them nothing and never stop to realize  what it cost.  Two years a go they tried to sneak an endorsement from the PGA and it was found out and owners blasrted the PGA.  This article will tell you much:  http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/pellucid/perspective_201202/index.php?startid=2Golf courses are needed in order forevery other facet of the business to exist and yet they probably make less money than any other segment of the industry recently.  All because the industry has created an environment that prices the game out of reach for many...
And I think GN is one of the worst of these...

[Mike_Young]

Brent,
Also, one very very important thing...they control your database and webpage and could compare to other competitors or any variety of things...not good...

[John Kavanaugh]

It's only a matter of time before GolfNow gets in the Outpost Club model and sells yearly subscriptions to access their private club network. Or better yet they sell golden tickets to be a GolfNow rater.

If any GolfNow executives see this just shoot me an email, it's a cant miss.

[Jon Wiggett]

The deal would make sense if GN guaranteed selling and paying for an agreed number of tee times each day however the deal offered makes absolutely no sense business wise for a golf club in the greenfee business.

Jon

There have to be thousands of courses that have decided to stay on the system after their 2 year initial obligation.  It can't possibly be bad business for all of them. 

Andrew,

No, it will not be bad for all but possibly is for most. The way the system is set up GN and the client clubs have different goals. GN is interested in filling the first two times the most and the client club in filling from the 3rd time onwards. This means that for a club that is more popular than its neighbours it will get its first 2 times filled but then have to wait whilst GN actively push potential clients towards its rivals. This is not good business tactics for the more popular club.

It would be more interesting for the client club if GN were to get 1 free time for every 2 tee times it sells.

Brent,

many good points.

Jon

[Mike_Young]

For those interested ( and I realize most aren't)  here is a morning letter from Club Prophet Systems.  yes I understand most will say it is fair business....but this is just the beginning of this stuff...

http://www.clubprophetsystems.com/?wysija-page=1&controller=email&action=view&email_id=25&wysijap=subscriptions&user_id=3788

[A.G._Crockett]

For those interested ( and I realize most aren't)  here is a morning letter from Club Prophet Systems.  yes I understand most will say it is fair business....but this is just the beginning of this stuff...

http://www.clubprophetsystems.com/?wysija-page=1&controller=email&action=view&email_id=25&wysijap=subscriptions&user_id=3788

Wow.

I read the entire article, and while a good deal of it is technically over my head AND written from a particular POV, I must say that it makes me quite nervous. 

John Kavanaugh's comparison to Walmart seems apt, and I avoid Walmart, regardless of cost to me, at every possible opportunity.

[Brent Hutto]

Well aside from all the he-said, she-said stuff it's a vendor of systems for golf course operators pointing out that a deep pockets major player is moving in and taking over their industry. Unless GolfNow screws it up, they may well capture the entirety of online booking, point of sale, merchandise middleman and who knows what other aspects of the industry.

I don't know that GolfNow accomplishing that goal (along with mining the Big Data they capture which is probably where the really big money lies down the road) will "destroy" the golf business. WalMart dominates low-end retail but there's still Target and the various Dollar stores. Amazon dominates online retail but to do so they're spending money apparently without end. And their money will eventually run out.

It just seems to be how the world works at this juncture. I can't see how anybody reading this forum can do a thing to keep that process from running its course. And it's not completely clear that for the consumer it will be a net loss. I don't think my own life would be better if Amazon and WalMart closed their doors tomorrow. And to the (very seldom) extent I'm a "retail golfer" I don't think my golfing life would be improved if GolfNow went away...except for the end of those damned Old Tom commercials which would be totally welcome at this juncture.

[Mike_Young]

Well aside from all the he-said, she-said stuff it's a vendor of systems for golf course operators pointing out that a deep pockets major player is moving in and taking over their industry. Unless GolfNow screws it up, they may well capture the entirety of online booking, point of sale, merchandise middleman and who knows what other aspects of the industry.

I don't know that GolfNow accomplishing that goal (along with mining the Big Data they capture which is probably where the really big money lies down the road) will "destroy" the golf business. WalMart dominates low-end retail but there's still Target and the various Dollar stores. Amazon dominates online retail but to do so they're spending money apparently without end. And their money will eventually run out.

It just seems to be how the world works at this juncture. I can't see how anybody reading this forum can do a thing to keep that process from running its course. And it's not completely clear that for the consumer it will be a net loss. I don't think my own life would be better if Amazon and WalMart closed their doors tomorrow. And to the (very seldom) extent I'm a "retail golfer" I don't think my golfing life would be improved if GolfNow went away...except for the end of those damned Old Tom commercials which would be totally welcome at this juncture.

Brent ,
Here is a little more fresh info on where the golf associations are taking things...   http://www.golfwrx.com/292915/why-golf-industry-organizations-must-do-more-and-what-they-can-do/

[Matt Day]

Quick 18 maybe suitable as an entry point product for an online booking system?

http://quick18.com/

The Quick 18  model in Australia is a cost per online booking with no upfront costs. Easy to use and already several courses who had never had online booking are using the product as entry point.

GolfNow isn't in the Australian market yet.

[Dave Doxey]

Well aside from all the he-said, she-said stuff it's a vendor of systems for golf course operators pointing out that a deep pockets major player is moving in and taking over their industry. Unless GolfNow screws it up, they may well capture the entirety of online booking, point of sale, merchandise middleman and who knows what other aspects of the industry.

I don't know that GolfNow accomplishing that goal (along with mining the Big Data they capture which is probably where the really big money lies down the road) will "destroy" the golf business. WalMart dominates low-end retail but there's still Target and the various Dollar stores. Amazon dominates online retail but to do so they're spending money apparently without end. And their money will eventually run out.

It just seems to be how the world works at this juncture. I can't see how anybody reading this forum can do a thing to keep that process from running its course. And it's not completely clear that for the consumer it will be a net loss. I don't think my own life would be better if Amazon and WalMart closed their doors tomorrow. And to the (very seldom) extent I'm a "retail golfer" I don't think my golfing life would be improved if GolfNow went away...except for the end of those damned Old Tom commercials which would be totally welcome at this juncture.

Brent ,
Here is a little more fresh info on where the golf associations are taking things...   http://www.golfwrx.com/292915/why-golf-industry-organizations-must-do-more-and-what-they-can-do/

Reading the article about golf organizations brought to mind a rule about organizations put forth by author and scientist Jerry Pournelle:

Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work on furthering the organization itself. In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions.

[Joel_Stewart]

Over the weekend, NBC tried to plug public courses and showed a list of other public courses in San Francisco implying that they were top quality public courses.   At the top left of the screen was a small GolfNow logo and at the very end of the segment they said these are GolfNow golf courses.

To me this sets a serious conflict.