Collusion at Augusta - One More Time (With My Apologies)

[Jim_Coleman]

    Did anyone notice how Spieth left his ball three feet from the cup on the 8th hole Sunday while Rose was executing a chip from a difficult angle?  Rose's chip missed hitting Spieth's ball by inches as it rolled by the hole.  I continue to believe there there is a tacit agreement on tour to help each other out in this regard.  I can think of no other explanation for Spieth leaving his ball where he left it.   Quite amazing, even with the Masters on the line.

[JWL]

I don't know what it is, but I noticed the same and commented to my wife that I thought what was happening was wrong.
The reason being is that every player has a responsibility to protect the field from anyone getting 'help' that others wouldn't be able to have with the same situation.
I firmly believe that every player should mark their ball in that situation, without hesitation.   

[Bill Brightly]

I remember the shot, but in no way was Speith "colluding" to help Rose in what was essentially match play... This is not player A helping player B's chances of maybe making the cut, which I agree may happen on the tour.  Remind us of the circumstances. Did Speith have a comfortable amount of time to mark his ball? Would it have been unusual for Speith to go mark?

Or do you think it is just common practice to leave every ball in place that is past the hole? If the latter is the case, I think that I might feel uncomfortable "changing the rules" (deviating from standard operating procedures) in such a tense situation. Know what I mean? I also do not like messing with the golf gods...

[Brent Hutto]

If it is truly "tacit" as in never spoken then it is not, in fact, against the Rules of Golf.

The Rules say you may mark your ball on the putting surface before the other player plays his shot to the green. For obvious reasons the Rules do not require your ball to be marked before the opponent plays a shot.

What would be against the Rules would be for one player to request another not to mark the ball. Or for a player to offer not to mark. Verbally. In the form of an agreement.

I've observed that literally every PGA Tour player leaves his ball unmarked routinely no matter who the other player might be. That's been true as long as I've been watching golf on TV (20+ years now). I very much doubt that any player has had to ask for that or reach an agreement, it is just the way things are done on Tour. As such, it is indeed "tacit". A routine practice, not an agreement.

And forgive me for asking but just why do you give a shit anyway? Seriously. If everyone in the field is treating everyone else in the field the same way, routinely, then what do you think they need protecting from?

[Sam Morrow]

If he had taken the time to mark his ball someone on this site would come in and complain about pace of play.

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm thinking we don't appreciate the angle of that chip,on TV.  No,way Spieth is going to,give Rose any help with the Masters on the line.  

However I thought that Jason Day definitely straddled the line the day before when he backhanded his tap in on 18  What a hard call that is if you are a co -competitor . Was I the only one who saw it ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Honestly, it is better to wait until both balls are on the green to mark. It prevents a player from inadvertently stepping on the putting line of his opponent. The greens get pretty fragile on a Sunday afternoon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't know what it is, but I noticed the same and commented to my wife that I thought what was happening was wrong.

The reason being is that every player has a responsibility to protect the field from anyone getting 'help' that others wouldn't be able to have with the same situation.

JWL,

Agreed.
I noticed the same thing and attributed it to the "fog of competition" or being so in your own world that you're oblivious to your surroundings.

I firmly believe that every player should mark their ball in that situation, without hesitation.   

[Brent Hutto]

Honestly, it is better to wait until both balls are on the green to mark. It prevents a player from inadvertently stepping on the putting line of his opponent. The greens get pretty fragile on a Sunday afternoon.

And I suspect a typical Tour pro is 100x more concerned about HIS putt hitting a spike mark than about the possibility of an opponents putt being backstopped by an unmarked ball.

[John Kavanaugh]

As a fat man I take great pains to not disturb the line of my opponent. The toughest part is avoiding the through line. I also tend the flag at an approximate 60 deg angle to not create an impression within 5 feet of the hole. If I am ever so lucky to be in the last group of the day you can see where I have recently walked by the shadows cast in the craters. It's a real problem.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Honestly, it is better to wait until both balls are on the green to mark. It prevents a player from inadvertently stepping on the putting line of his opponent. The greens get pretty fragile on a Sunday afternoon.

And I suspect a typical Tour pro is 100x more concerned about HIS putt hitting a spike mark than about the possibility of an opponents putt being backstopped by an unmarked ball.

Brent,

Competitors are instructed, from a very early age, that they have an obligation to protect the field, and that obligation supersedes one's concerns about spike marks.   

In addition, what golfer wants to help a competitor vying for his title ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

It is the duty of every golfer to do everything in their power to help an opponent. Look for their lost balls with vigor, help with rules decisions even if they benefit the opponent, rake bunkers better than how you found them and attempt to keep the putting surface pristine behind you. Replacing divots and repairing ball marks all fall under these guidelines. The sad truth of the matter is that courtesy is rarely quick. This is exactly why I often find fast players to be the rudest players on the course. A contrarian attitude in the modern game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

It is the duty of every golfer to do everything in their power to help an opponent.

JakaB,

Since you've never competed at a high level I can understand your ignorance, your total ignorance when it comes to the rules of golf.

To help you, as a start, please reference rules 8-1 & 8-2.


Look for their lost balls with vigor, help with rules decisions even if they benefit the opponent, rake bunkers better than how you found them and attempt to keep the putting surface pristine behind you. Replacing divots and repairing ball marks all fall under these guidelines. The sad truth of the matter is that courtesy is rarely quick.

This is exactly why I often find fast players to be the rudest players on the course.
A contrarian attitude in the modern game.


You're confusing etiquette with abiding by the rules.

A competitor may not assist a fellow competitor by leaving his ball unmarked on the green.
The competitors obligation is to protect the field, and not to endear himself to his pairing/s.

Please read the USGA rule book and decisions before making rash, uninformed and moronic statements😓

[Jim_Coleman]

   Brent:  I suppose I don't really give a shit.  But I do find it interesting.  
   For those of you finding valid reasons (speed up play, step on the line, etc.), I don't buy any of them.  It's not as if Rose was hurrying to hit the shot, and people mark balls all the time.  The only reason that ball was left there was because Rose wanted it left there.  As for whether a tacit agreement constitutes collusion, it is my understanding that it does not, although I'm not sure why.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick,

It is the duty of every golfer to do everything in their power to help an opponent.

JakaB,

Since you've never competed at a high level I can understand your ignorance, your total ignorance when it comes to the rules of golf.

To help you, as a start, please reference rules 8-1 & 8-2.


Look for their lost balls with vigor, help with rules decisions even if they benefit the opponent, rake bunkers better than how you found them and attempt to keep the putting surface pristine behind you. Replacing divots and repairing ball marks all fall under these guidelines. The sad truth of the matter is that courtesy is rarely quick.

This is exactly why I often find fast players to be the rudest players on the course.
A contrarian attitude in the modern game.


You're confusing etiquette with abiding by the rules.

A competitor may not assist a fellow competitor by leaving his ball unmarked on the green.
The competitors obligation is to protect the field, and not to endear himself to his pairing/s.

Please read the USGA rule book and decisions before making rash, uninformed and moronic statements😓

Please quote the rule and decision(s) where it SPECUFICALLY says that.   If it's indeed in the Rules, it's violated all the time.  What is the distance from the hole of the competitor's shot where one is REQUIRED to get up there and mark?  10 yards?  20 yards?  30 yards?  100 yards?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Speith should not have marked.  Pace of play.  This is one of the things that amateurs need to NOT do.  If you are pitching/chipping and a partners ball is not in your way, they should not mark.  Whether or not it may be in an advantageous position behind the hole is immaterial.  Think of four average duffers in 4 different positions around the green.  Joe Duffer one hits his pitch and moseys up to mark, Clank McShankerton duffs his pitch to the back of the green and wanders around to mark, etc. etc.  It's nonsense to have all 4 hit and mark and adds way too much time to the round.

[Chris Cupit]

In this case the Rule would be 22-1 and decision 22/7 seems most applicable.  I did not see the situation but professionals often do things, shall we say tacitly or even surreptitiously, that are a violation of the Rules.  But many if not most Committees agree to overlook those situations.  Order of play is a situation where the Rules themselves contradict themselves and explicitly encourage (in many if not all situations) a violation of Rule 10 in stroke play.

Again, I have no idea of the specifics in this situation but the notion that strict violations of the rules are sometimes overlooked at the professional level could only SHOCK Capt. Renault in Casablanca  

[Bill Brightly]

Pat, Please explain. Here are the rules you cite:



8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

a. give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

b. ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.


8-2. Indicating Line of Play

a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.

Exception: Flagstick attended or held up - see Rule 17-1.

b. On the Putting Green
When the player's ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

Note: The Committee may, in the conditions of a team competition (Rule 33-1), permit each team to appoint one person who may give advice (including pointing out a line for putting) to members of that team. The Committee may establish conditions relating to the appointment and permitted conduct of that person, who must be identified to the Committee before giving advice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

JakaB stated: "It is the duty of every golfer to do everything in their power to help an opponent.


The rules I cited refute JakaB's assertion.

Hope that helps


Pat, Please explain. Here are the rules you cite:



8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

a. give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

b. ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.


8-2. Indicating Line of Play

a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.

Exception: Flagstick attended or held up - see Rule 17-1.

b. On the Putting Green
When the player's ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

Note: The Committee may, in the conditions of a team competition (Rule 33-1), permit each team to appoint one person who may give advice (including pointing out a line for putting) to members of that team. The Committee may establish conditions relating to the appointment and permitted conduct of that person, who must be identified to the Committee before giving advice.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Funny timing.  I was at our son's baseball tournament in Modesto, CA all weekend so I had to Tivo the final round and was just watching the recording with him.  We were just on the 8th hole replay when I saw this thread.  My son (who just started playing competitive golf for his middle school) asked me what would be the ruling if Rose's ball had hit Spieth's.

For what it's worth, Rose hit his chip 44 seconds after Spieth's ball came to a stop.  Spieth made a few steps toward the green after his chip, and then stopped.  The camera then went to a shot by Mickelson so I didn't see anything until Rose hit his chip.

[Benjamin Litman]

For what it's worth, Rose hit his chip 44 seconds after Spieth's ball came to a stop.  Spieth made a few steps toward the green after his chip, and then stopped.  The camera then went to a shot by Mickelson so I didn't see anything until Rose hit his chip.

Then we don't know for sure that it was 44 seconds. CBS played many, many shots on delay during the event.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

Read Decision 22-7

[Kevin_Reilly]

For what it's worth, Rose hit his chip 44 seconds after Spieth's ball came to a stop.  Spieth made a few steps toward the green after his chip, and then stopped.  The camera then went to a shot by Mickelson so I didn't see anything until Rose hit his chip.

Then we don't know for sure that it was 44 seconds. CBS played many, many shots on delay during the event.

[/size]

That is true, but the Mickelson shot was on delay and they quickly went back to Rose (without a comment about the shot not being live) standing over the ball, so it didn't appear to be on delay. 

[Will MacEwen]

Calc tweeted that Spieth should have marked his ball.

[William_G]

Calc tweeted that Spieth should have marked his ball.

Yes, for sure
Then at 16 Rose was working on an academy award after his tee shot which affected Jordan enough for him hit the wrong club and go long and left