News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The term "Championship Course"
« on: September 06, 2003, 08:40:46 PM »
On a recent outing a golfer came up to me and asked, without letting anyone else here, "So, would you call this a 'championship course'?"

Funny thing, I've written about this in "Routing the Golf Course," but who's to say if I was right? As many here have pointed out, I've been wrong before.

What is the definition of 'championship course'...is it an appropriate term?...with so many people using it widely, should we, once and for all, define it? Should we lambaste those who use it indiscriminately?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2003, 08:44:44 PM »
Championship course:  "We have nothing nice to say architecturally about our course, but we need to call it a championship course to justify the $80 we're going to charge you to play here."

Jeremy_Glenn.

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2003, 08:50:04 PM »
Championship course:  Any 18-hole course that cannot be readily identified as the shortest course in the area.

Now, can someone define what a "Championship Executive Course" is?  No kidding, there's a course I've seen that describes itself that way.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2003, 09:20:24 PM »
Forrest Richardson,

I tend to place golf courses into categories.
Championship and Sporty would be two of those categories.
After playing a golf course I make a determination on which category I feel it falls in.

As an example, I would categorize Shinnecock as a Championship golf course, NGLA as sporty.

Aronomink, Championship, Merion is a hybrid championship and sporty course in my mind.

Pebble Beach, Championship, Cypress Point Sporty.

Winged Foot, Championship,  Bethpage Black, Championship
The Creek, Piping Rock, sporty

Baltusrol & Plainfield Championship, Somerset Hills Sporty.
Hidden Creek Sporty.

Length is certainly a factor in determining courses that fall into the Championship category.

But, that's just my own view on Championship golf courses versus others

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2003, 09:50:22 PM »
I would reserve the term Championship only for those courses that have held a major national championship.  If pushed further I would not use the term at all.  When I see the phrase used it does the same thing to me as when I see a sign on a motel that says "clean room."  I stay away!!!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 09:51:16 PM by tommy W »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2003, 09:53:57 PM »
It's purely a marketing term.

Championship courses usually offer a free hot dog and chips with your green fee receipt.
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2003, 10:02:44 PM »
It is my feeling that it doesn't mean what it use to.  There was probably a time and a place where it truly separated goat ranches from legitimate tournament venues, but not so much today.  

Pat makes a nice distinction with sporty vs champ...

Yet, what is interesting to me is what about something like Whistling Straits?  Not sporty?  Sporty?  But there are hosting the PGA next year  Also, isn't there a lot about Pebble that is sporty, like the short 7th?

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.....but if forced to give an answer I would say that a "championship course" is one that is a good venue for a big tourney.  Here in Oregon it is Pumpkin Ridge.  The course is built on a big scale which makes space for chalets and tents and honeybuckets and parking and lost and found and all that "other" crap.  

But is sure seems like THAT definition has little to do with the architecture of the course, thus it doesn't really fly :P
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2003, 10:48:22 PM »
Pat, to be fair:

Championship
+
Sporty
+
Hybrid
____________
3

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2003, 12:17:44 AM »
Forrest Richardson,

There are other categories, and I posted them a year or two ago.

I'm trying to remember the exact "title" that I gave to each of the other categories, but one was along the lines of membership test and the other was along the lines of easy.

I'm sure the names will come to me, unfortunately, it will probably be at 3:00 am.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2003, 04:32:04 AM »
Forrest,

I would classify "championship course" right up there with certain other golf course architecture & maintenance terms whose orignal meaning has now been totally vitiated thanks to hype, poorly informed media and general cultural sloppiness:

links-style
Scottish-style
signature design
signature hole
heather
reachable par-4
partially surrounded

Whenever I read these terms I know the writer is a novice and p.r. flack

they are beyond salvation as meaningful terms

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2003, 10:28:50 AM »
RTJ Sr. also devised "signature design" in his ads. Are we detecting a trend here that explains a certain designer's legacy?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2003, 01:16:18 PM »
"meaningless"...are we comfortable stating that this is the case, when so many people outside GCA use the term and apply it to courses?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2003, 02:00:10 PM »
Speaking as a vox populi type, it always seemed to be defined as: an 18 hole golf course which has a standard par 72 usually w/ 4 par 3's and 4 par fives? Not an exectutive or par 3 course.

Hyperbolist (marketing guy) may have taken it over and now courses without the standard mix of holes or standard par can call themselves whatever they want.

If you name it, they will pay. Field of screams  :'(

allysmith

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2003, 03:10:48 PM »
It seems to me that we have three simple conditions here gentlemen:

1. Championship Course - a term used a a pure marketing tool

2. Championship Course  - a term used to describe the potential of a course

3. Championship Course -  a term used to describe a course which has been used for a recognised CHAMPIONSHIP.

A championship need not be a major tourney but could also include national ranking amateur events, tour events, state and national open events.

In 1. we have an ego driven situation

In 2. we have an ego waiting to happen

In 3 we have ego overtaken by FACT

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2003, 03:17:45 PM »
Is this similar to the term "highway"? — Originally meant to be a built-up roadway with no interruptions? Now, of course, it means nearly ANY roadway on which relatively high speeds can be driven and there are few, if any, intersections.

Now that "highway" is used for a variety of road types, is the term meaningless? or just changed from the original?

And, does this bother anyone other than highway buffs or highway engineers?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Phil_the_Author

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2003, 03:44:59 AM »
Ally,

You wrote:
"3. Championship Course -  a term used to describe a course which has been used for a recognised CHAMPIONSHIP.

A championship need not be a major tourney but could also include national ranking amateur events, tour events, state and national open events."

If we accept this as a proper definition, at what point can we say that a course is no longer a championship course?

For example, the 1926 (?) PGA Championship was contested at what was then the Salisbury Country Club, and what is now the Red Course at Eisenhower Park. It was a true championship course based on your definition.

Even after its recent renovation, the hosting of the Long Island Classic of the Champion's Tour this past August, showed that even though it is a pleasent course, it can co longer be considered a championship course.

It has had its moment in the sun and has stepped aside as the future raced on by.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2003, 07:46:34 AM »
Phil,

Does a "championship course", then, need to host a significant championship? Does it need to control the field? Give me your thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 07:46:58 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2003, 10:50:04 AM »
Well, I think all of the replies have been thoughtful. Some a bit sarcastic, but still thoughtful.

My feeling is that the term is widely used and applied to a very broad majority of courses. Like it or not, the term has stuck and now — just like "highway" — has come to signify a variety of types, not just those on which a "championship" can or will be played.

But "meaningless"? No, I don't think so. I'd like to see an attempt at a definition that might, at least, give the term some limits.

Thoughts?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ForkaB

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2003, 11:42:08 AM »
When I see the words "Championship Course" I am certain that the course never did nor ever likely will host any sort of serious championship.  What it means is that it is a standard sized course--4-3s, 10-4s and 4-5s--and probably stretchable to at least 6800 yards.  No more, no less.

Forrest

Why do you really care?

PS--I do know that the powers that temporarily be at one of my home courses like to call its "Big" course (that's what we peons call it) THE CHAMPIONSHIP COURSE.  I am ashamed.

Jay Carstens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2003, 01:58:42 PM »
Forrest,
Shouldn't a "championship" course test all the clubs in the bag?
To me, this identifies the best player.  ;)
Play the course as you find it

Matt_Ward

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2003, 02:06:57 PM »
Forrest:

How about following the directions given by the Winged Foot members to Tillinghast -- "give us a man-sized course."

The term "championship" has been spun in a number of directions by people looking either to promote / hype a layout or simply to elevate a state amateur event into somethiong akin to hosting the US Open.

In previous years there were serious attempts to link overall distance to the word "championship" as in 7,000 yard championship course. This is to say something a bit different from those courses that were defined as "executive" which means a junior league version of what I just mentioned.

allysmith

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2003, 02:30:09 PM »
Phil,

Im with Redanman on this one. I genuinely think that a Championship Course is timeless. If it held the Doolalley National Open back in 19oatcake it may be aging but its still a bona fide Championship Course.

I think what you are looking for is a more descriptive title for a blody long, bloody hard course that tests everyone. It may be suitable for a championship but until it hosts a Championship it AINT a Championship Course.

Perhaps we should more correctly call them Champonship Style Courses.

That way visitors would not be coned.

allysmith

Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2003, 02:31:35 PM »
Sorry I forgot to commend Rich Goodale for his (usual) good common sense approach

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2003, 03:07:31 PM »
Rich,

I care because those of us who are involved in golf architecture should try and sway public use of terms when they are confusing due to ignorance among those who influence through their wide use of such terms. I believe it is easy to bury our heads in the sand — as we have. I'd rather see us help define the term so it can be pointed out when it is misused. Perhaps a grand goal...but you cannot be faulted for such in my book.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The term "Championship Course"
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2003, 03:16:37 PM »
I'm with Prof. Goodale on this one: A "Championship Course" is a standard-par, full-length golf course.

It's apparent to me, from the ubiquitousness of this term in marketing materials, that everyone wants a Championship Course.

It's equally apparent to me that more non-"championship" courses is what this country needs. We need more shorter courses (not par-3 or "Executive" courses, though some of them would be) where kids and codgers can enjoy an expeditious, joyful round of golf without either getting their own day ruined or ruining anyone else's day.

I'm talking about 18-hole, par-64, 5000-yard courses. That's what this country needs! And the sportier, the better!

« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 03:19:19 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016