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Gary Sato

Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« on: April 06, 2015, 12:12:24 PM »
This was mentioned in the Cypress Point thread but I thought it deserved a thread of it's own.

Last week I played golf with one of the executives at Bandon Dunes and he mentioned they have made a decision to not fight the poa coming into the greens.  He said "we give up".  I'm not sure what they tried to keep it out but recognized that it was a never ending losing battle.

   

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2015, 12:25:38 PM »
Poa is pretty relentless on the west coast. I wonder if Bandon will have nematode problems once the greens are predominately poa.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2015, 01:05:42 PM »
Help me out here.

If a course is grassed in all fescue, that's what I would expect to grow in. I get that.

If poa moves in, it presumably comes from an outside agnency. Birds, wildlife, human golf shoes, etc.

(I'm guessing that golf shoes are the most likely culprit.)

So, as the airport x-ray scanners don't seem to be enough, what treatments are practical on-site?

Irradiation? Some clensing solution before playing the course?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2015, 03:00:42 PM »
Poa that manages to gain a foothold while the maintenance regime favors fescue deserves the space it occupies. There is nothing inherently wrong with poa, as long as the maintenance isn't geared towards it when fescues or bents or bluegrasses are the desired sward. Maintain for what you want, and whatever survives that should be just dandy to play golf from.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Kirk

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Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2015, 03:41:08 PM »
As far as I know, there are no examples of Pacific Northwest (and probably northern California, too) courses which have managed to fend off an eventual transition to Poa annua.

The best example of maintaining bentgrass greens for a long time, that I'm aware of, is Stanford University GC, where superintendent Ken Williams does not conduct typical aerations.  I think he may aerate with small tines, or do that water injection style of aerations.  But I don't think he takes plugs out of the greens.  After about 20 years, they are still only 1-2% Poa, based on my last round there.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2015, 03:46:23 PM »
Poa that manages to gain a foothold while the maintenance regime favors fescue deserves the space it occupies. There is nothing inherently wrong with poa, as long as the maintenance isn't geared towards it when fescues or bents or bluegrasses are the desired sward. Maintain for what you want, and whatever survives that should be just dandy to play golf from.

Joe

Joe,

thanks for the enlightened and well balanced view. Just because it might not be the most desirable turfgrass does not make it bad. It is after all the most successful of the turfgrasses despite never being sown. The only way I have found to keep it out long term is if you can use a hot, dry spell in the summer to burn it out.

Jon

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2015, 03:48:07 PM »
"The best example of maintaining bentgrass greens for a long time, that I'm aware of, is Stanford University GC, where superintendent Ken Williams does not conduct typical aerations.  I think he may aerate with small tines, or do that water injection style of aerations.  But I don't think he takes plugs out of the greens.  After about 20 years, they are still only 1-2% Poa, based on my last round there."

John K. -

The weather at Stanford is much warmer (with little or no fog), especially during the summer months, than it is at the golf courses in San Francisco and on the Monterey peninsula.  I wonder if that makes controlling the poa at Stanford easier.

DT
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 03:51:53 PM by David_Tepper »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2015, 03:51:12 PM »
As far as I know, there are no examples of Pacific Northwest (and probably northern California, too) courses which have managed to fend off an eventual transition to Poa annua.

The best example of maintaining bentgrass greens for a long time, that I'm aware of, is Stanford University GC, where superintendent Ken Williams does not conduct typical aerations.  I think he may aerate with small tines, or do that water injection style of aerations.  But I don't think he takes plugs out of the greens.  After about 20 years, they are still only 1-2% Poa, based on my last round there.


FWIW, Bandon doesn't take plugs out of greens, either.  No course with fescue greens would ... you'd be removing too many plants, and making it easy for Poa annua to take over because the fescue doesn't creep laterally very well.

Ryan Bass

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 03:57:22 PM »
As far as I know, there are no examples of Pacific Northwest (and probably northern California, too) courses which have managed to fend off an eventual transition to Poa annua.

The best example of maintaining bentgrass greens for a long time, that I'm aware of, is Stanford University GC, where superintendent Ken Williams does not conduct typical aerations.  I think he may aerate with small tines, or do that water injection style of aerations.  But I don't think he takes plugs out of the greens.  After about 20 years, they are still only 1-2% Poa, based on my last round there.

Never been to Bandon.  I've played 3-4 rounds on greens with significant Poa creep.  John, in your opinion, what's better for play at Bandon: completely poa greens or fescue with poa creep?  Hope the question makes sense.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2015, 05:00:51 PM »
There's a new spray called xonerate for poa annua but I'm not sure it's effective on fescue?  Has anyone had any success with it?

http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci0512-poa-annua-elimination-xonerate-herbicide.aspx


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2015, 05:24:44 PM »
The best example of maintaining bentgrass greens for a long time, that I'm aware of, is Stanford University GC, where superintendent Ken Williams does not conduct typical aerations.  I think he may aerate with small tines, or do that water injection style of aerations.  But I don't think he takes plugs out of the greens.  After about 20 years, they are still only 1-2% Poa, based on my last round there.

http://sgcsuperintendent.blogspot.com/2014/11/hydrojecting-greens.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2015, 05:47:10 PM »
Joel--

We test plotted Xonerate on our greens and it hurt the bent grass pretty badly and it did not get all of the poa annua.   It may work better on fescue greens.    Where it worked great was on fairways and approach areas that are cut at a longer height.  There is a new product that is coming out I think early next year called poa cure (I believe it is made in Korea) that might be the answer.  The test plots of it are pretty extraordinary.  There is an article written about it in one of the Superintendentīs publications last year.  It is worth a look.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2015, 06:40:49 PM »
I received a text saying Poa Cure may be banned California.  Hopefully Oregon has more sense.

Dane Hawker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2015, 07:13:14 PM »
Someone needs to try get Haloxyfop-P-methyl registered in the USA. It is very cheap and at low rates and kills Poa in a fescue sward.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2015, 07:32:12 PM »
As far as I know, there are no examples of Pacific Northwest (and probably northern California, too) courses which have managed to fend off an eventual transition to Poa annua.

The best example of maintaining bentgrass greens for a long time, that I'm aware of, is Stanford University GC, where superintendent Ken Williams does not conduct typical aerations.  I think he may aerate with small tines, or do that water injection style of aerations.  But I don't think he takes plugs out of the greens.  After about 20 years, they are still only 1-2% Poa, based on my last round there.

Never been to Bandon.  I've played 3-4 rounds on greens with significant Poa creep.  John, in your opinion, what's better for play at Bandon: completely poa greens or fescue with poa creep?  Hope the question makes sense.

Hi Ryan,

In my experience, greens in mid-transition are less enjoyable to play.

At my home club, Pumpkin Ridge west of Portland, Oregon, it took about 8 years for Poa annua to establish a significant percentage of the greens.  Maybe 10-20% or so.  At that point, management said they were giving up trying to keep it out, and changed maintenance practices to allow it to flourish.  For the next 5-7 years, the greens were relatively slow, uneven and bumpy.  After 15 years, the greens were 75-95% Poa, and evolving into a finer putting surface.  Poa annua adapts to a low mowing environment, as described by this key USGA article on the subject:

http://www2.gcsaa.org/gcm/2006/dec/pdfs/073-088_dec06.pdf

Now 23 years old, our Poa annua at Pumpkin Ridge have largely evolved into a tight turf well suited to the environment, which allows faster green speeds than the original Penncross bentgrass surface.  They are very smooth once again, after several years of bumpiness.

So far at Bandon, Bandon Dunes is 16-17 years old, and the Poa transition is largely complete.  Pacific Dunes's greens have been bumpy the last few years, but should smooth out soon.  Bandon Trails is a few years behind, with a Poa infestation on the greens nearing that 10-20% mark which begins the difficult transition period.  Old Macdonald is still almost 100% fescue, a fantastic surface to play and putt on.  Enjoy it while you can.

In my opinion, the fairways take a little longer to make the Poa transition, as player traffic is better dispersed.

The big question is whether the Poa annua grass will make a reasonable surface for the fast, bouncy conditions that some of us covet.  I think it's clear that Poa annua will play a bit softer than the planted fescues, but I also think Poa annua will have some advantages as the dominant native  grass.  At this point I would appreciate someone with professional experience to add anything more. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2015, 08:54:26 PM »
John K. -

Do you know if nematodes in the poa greens have been a problem at either Pumpkin Ridge or Bandon?

DT


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2015, 09:10:48 PM »
Glad John made the distinction that there are four courses out here, each with its own growth history and plan. 

Whatever they're doing out here, it is working.

The greens this winter have been as good as they've been in a year.

For courses that get a multiple of average club play on a daily basis, the team is doing a damn good job at working with what mother nature gives them.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kirk

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Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2015, 10:13:42 PM »
John K. -

Do you know if nematodes in the poa greens have been a problem at either Pumpkin Ridge or Bandon?

DT


Hi David,

I can ask my superintendent when I see him next time.

I don't think we have had nematode problems.  But I don't have a lot of knowledge or experience with nematodes.  The last time I was in the Bay Area I played a course that was rumored to be having a recent issue.  Those greens were a bit bumpy and brown in places.

I've never heard anyone mention nematodes at Bandon Dunes.  I suppose that could change with the changing grasses.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2015, 10:27:30 PM »
While there undoubtedly are more n Oregon I just remember Tualaitin CC losing their 1st green to nematodes in the 80s. It looks like CA has about a 6:1 ratio vs OR in the number of golf courses but a 55:4 lead in nematode infestations.

To correct myself the north course at The Reserve Vineyards had a problem with them in two fairways a few years ago. We and mother nature overwatered and drownded them
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 10:32:04 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Steve Okula

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Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2015, 01:09:56 AM »
Help me out here.

If a course is grassed in all fescue, that's what I would expect to grow in. I get that.

If poa moves in, it presumably comes from an outside agnency. Birds, wildlife, human golf shoes, etc.

(I'm guessing that golf shoes are the most likely culprit.)

So, as the airport x-ray scanners don't seem to be enough, what treatments are practical on-site?

Irradiation? Some clensing solution before playing the course?

Poa annua will be flowering everywhere around the fescue sown areas, in between fairways, in the roughs, around the perimeters. The seed are tiny, something like 2-3 million to the pound, and can be carried by the wind and runoff, or tracked by a lot more than golf shoes; animals, carts, mowers. If you're pumping irrigation water from an open source such as a lake or river then there is probably Poa being effectively hydro-seeded through he sprinklers. Poa is the only weed I've seen infesting artificial turf.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2015, 04:20:27 AM »
To try and understand the context of maturing fescue/bent/poa greens, I would be interested to know the height of cut on greens, has that height been constant over the years, and has green speeds also been reasonably constant and acceptable to visiting players ?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2015, 06:38:44 AM »
Stuart,

to keep the fescue the height of cut would have to be 4.5mm or above.

Jon

MClutterbuck

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Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2015, 09:11:06 AM »
Poa that manages to gain a foothold while the maintenance regime favors fescue deserves the space it occupies. There is nothing inherently wrong with poa, as long as the maintenance isn't geared towards it when fescues or bents or bluegrasses are the desired sward. Maintain for what you want, and whatever survives that should be just dandy to play golf from.

Joe

Joe,

thanks for the enlightened and well balanced view. Just because it might not be the most desirable turfgrass does not make it bad. It is after all the most successful of the turfgrasses despite never being sown. The only way I have found to keep it out long term is if you can use a hot, dry spell in the summer to burn it out.

Jon

Jon, how do you burn it out? And should I assume you have fescue greens?

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2015, 10:13:15 AM »
Poa that manages to gain a foothold while the maintenance regime favors fescue deserves the space it occupies. There is nothing inherently wrong with poa, as long as the maintenance isn't geared towards it when fescues or bents or bluegrasses are the desired sward. Maintain for what you want, and whatever survives that should be just dandy to play golf from.

Joe

Joe,

thanks for the enlightened and well balanced view. Just because it might not be the most desirable turfgrass does not make it bad. It is after all the most successful of the turfgrasses despite never being sown. The only way I have found to keep it out long term is if you can use a hot, dry spell in the summer to burn it out.

Jon

Jon, how do you burn it out? And should I assume you have fescue greens?

To hark back to my greenkeeping days, you don't actually burn it out but take advantage of the fact that poa annua is notoriously shallow rooted so unable to deal with any prolonged drought or heat stress so essentially you just turn off the water for a few days and voila. Poa doesn't go very dormant, it just reseeds and dies. What you do with the bare patches then becomes the superintendents problem. In fact, keeping his job becomes the problem so communication would be a good idea.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poa Annua greens at Bandon
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2015, 11:05:38 AM »
As Marc says if the climate is suitable you can use heat and drought to kill off poa. I was HGK at one course where I did that each year. You would get a little poa ingression in spring but by mid June it was possible to eliminate it entirely. I was fortunate that the club wanted the course to play very F&F which it did with the greens stimping at 11+ at 7mm HOC.

Jon