Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 8th Hole

[Richard Choi]

Our Story So Far

• Hole 1: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60368.0.html
• Hole 2: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60398.0.html
• Hole 3: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60398.0.html
• Hole 4: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60569.0.html
• Hole 5: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60634.0.html
• Hole 6: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60681.0.html
• Hole 7: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60731.0.html
• Hole 8: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60771.0.html
• Hole 9: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60802.0.html
• Hole 10: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60844.0.html
• Hole 11: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60875.0.html
• Hole 12: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60927.0.html
• Hole 13: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60952.0.html
• Hole 14: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60993.0.html
• Hole 15: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61026.0.html
• Hole 16: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61061.0.html
• Hole 17: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61107.0.html
• Hole 18: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61151.0.html

[Richard Choi]

Changes for US Open

There are no changes of any note for US Open.

Tee Shot


You had to shape your drive on #7 to have the best chance of hitting (and staying) on the fairway. This is doubly so for #8.

Normally, from white and blue tees, this hole plays as straight as any hole at Chambers. For US Open, however, the back tees are angled from the fairways so that the hole becomes a dogleg left hole. Compounding the matter, the fairway landing zone (B, C) has a distinct left to right tilt.


If you hit a straight drive, the ball will kick sharply to the right into the rough (D). Unless you can hit a draw, I do not believe you will be able to hold this fairway with your tee shot.

Even with this caveat, you may want to hit a straight drive if you are prone to hit a hook. The fairway runs parallel to the west end of the property, and the steep slope(A) between the golf course and the neighborhood above, lines the fairway from tee to green. If you hook a ball in to this slope, the grass is so thick that you will not be able to contact the ball cleanly. You will be lucky to advance the ball enough to reach the green on the third shot. A lucky clean lie will still pose a steep challenge as the ball will be a couple of feet below your stance and the rocky nature of the ground will not allow your club to travel cleanly through it.


If you miss to the right, there is a plateau (D) just below the fairway to catch most balls headed this way. If you hit a very bad slice, beyond the plateau is a sharp drop (E) to the old driving range that is 30 feet below the fairway (you want to avoid this, obviously). The grass here can be thick, but more playable than missing to the left. At least you will have a level lie here.

A long hitter will have a distinct advantage if he can hit the fairway. There is a dip and a rise in the fairway around 260 to 290 yards out (B) that will prevent your drive from getting a long rollout. However, if you can carry most of this rise (C), another dip on the other side will kick your ball forward another 20 yards or so, making it possible to reach the green in two.


Approach

If you are lucky/strong enough to hit a drive well past 300 yards (C), you will be left with a second shot of around 260 yards (uphill) to the green. The green is very accessible in the front (H) and is receptive to a bump and roll. If you can hit a controlled draw with your fairway wood, you should have a reasonably good chance of reaching the green.

HOWEVER…

You should think long and hard about trying this shot as if you are not surgical in your execution, you will be scrambling for a bogey. If you overcook your draw and hit your approach into the left slope (M), you will have almost no chance of holding the green on your third shot (without some very creative detour) as the green runs away from you at a good clip. If you hit a fade, the margin for error is almost nil as anything hit on the right side of the green will drift towards the sharp slope (I) on the right and ride the slope down, across the fairway, and into the waste area (N) somewhere 20 to 30 feet below the green.


I believe most players will lay up on this hole, and when laying up, you want to take the high road. There is a sharp ridge that bisects the fairway left (F, high) and right (G, low) that starts about 180 yards short of the green (to the green). Because of its uphill nature, if you end up on the right side of the fairway on your layup, you will not be able to see the green. The preferred lie is on the high left side (F) where you will have a very good view of the pin and very accessible green opening for a variety of shots to the green. This requires a fairly precise layup as the left side is much narrower than the lower right side.


From the lower side (G), you don’t have much of a choice but to hit a high wedge shot to the pin. Distance control is of paramount importance as the green features three distinct tiers (you better hit the correct tier for any chance at a birdie) and the sharp drop off on the right side will reject any indifferent approaches, kicking your ball to the Neverland.


Around the Green


How you play your shot around the green will really depend on where the pin is located. There are three distinct green tiers. The front tier melds with the fairway in the front (H), inviting a simple chip shot if you miss the green short. The chip shots from the right (I) is somewhat reasonable as there is a slope that intrudes into the green from the left which redirects shots towards the middle of the front green.


About a foot above the front tier is the middle tier. This is the largest part of the green and is bordered by a sliver of fairway to the left (K) and sharp drop off to the right. If you are chipping from the front (H), you have to be aware of the left to right slope which is dominant, but is relatively simple due to the back tier guarding the long misses. The chip from the right fairway (I) is a bit more complicated as you need to deal with the sharp ridge. Personally, I prefer a low chip that bumps the slope and releases to the green (actually, I really like hitting it to the third tier and riding the high bowl back down to the middle, it is super fun). A regular high chip may go long as there is a slight tilt back towards the middle from the right and landing here will kick the ball towards left. There is fairway left of the green that will hold the misses outside the green.

Another couple of feet above is the third tier. It is surrounded by a bowl (back (L) and left (J)) that invites very creative approaches. The main obstacle is to make sure you hit your chips with enough weight to rise up to the last tier. The back bowl will catch most reasonable long misses. The pins here are very accessible due to this bowl.

Putting

The back tier pin (4) will be the easiest to putt to (if you are on the same tier). The slope is a simple back-front, left-right variety. As long as your ball is below the pin, it is will be straight and true. Birdies will be made here.

The front pins (3) are also quite accessible as long as it is away from the left side. The slope that guards the front of the green (K) will affect any left side putts greatly. But the green is quite level away from the slope and you should have a reasonable chance of making a 10 footer here.


Middle pins (1 & 2) will be a wild card as there are several pin positions where breaks will be confusing. The middle tier has a very slight saddle with a slope coming down from the left and another coming from the right. There is also a hump in the middle of this tier that will affect almost all putts hit across this green. I believe many will be fooled by the right to left break (especially #1 pin position) that defies gravity regarding how the green is positioned relative to the sound.

[Jon Cavalier]

Richard:

This is a really outstanding tour - thanks for your work on it. I played Chambers Bay a little over two weeks ago on my way down to Bandon, and I was really surprised at how much I enjoyed the golf course, and how much it made me look forward to watching the Open. Chambers Bay is a beautiful and fun golf course.

You have the 8th hole nailed. Interestingly, at least to me, I played my approach from about 100 yards to land left of the green on the side hill, hoping the ball would kick down to the day's left pin position. Well, it kicked down - on to the green, across the green, down the slope on the right of the green, and all the way to that collection area near that little white sign in your photo from behind the green. It's hard to describe how much slope there is on this hole. Wild.

Jon

[Richard Choi]

If the approach shot lands in the mounds to the front left and releases to the green, it will not stay on the green. Like many of the other sideboards, it will be punishing for US Open players.

[Garland Bayley]

If the approach shot lands in the mounds to the front left and releases to the green, it will not stay on the green. Like many of the other sideboards, it will be punishing for US Open players.

Clearly that's what a high flying wedge shot will do. What would a low flying bullet from a cleek do?

[Scott Weersing]

Where will the spectators be on the 8th hole? I would guess they would walk along the right side.

Will there be access up to the trail high up on the left?

I would call this a connector hole that connect the 7th with the 9th.

All i remember is that I played my second shot from the junk on the left and made bogey.

[Richard Choi]

I was hoping for a stand to be built on the slopes, but it looks like that is not going to happen. That will make this hole very inaccessible to spectators. I believe there will be fence along the top of the slope so that I do not believe you will be able to view the course from up there.

I know this is not a favored hole for most people. I believe the lack of bunkers turns off many players. I did not like this hole when I first played it either.

However, to me, this is the best par 5 on the course. The subtle features come into play in almost every possible combinations. More overt par 5, like the 4th, is more dramatic, but the actual variation in play is more limited (either you will be in the bunker troubles throughout the hole, or play safe away from them).

I never get bored playing this hole day after day. There are just so many different things that could happen that it always keeps me entertained.

[Terry Lavin]

If the approach shot lands in the mounds to the front left and releases to the green, it will not stay on the green. Like many of the other sideboards, it will be punishing for US Open players.

This strikes me as purposefully gimmicky.  I've read that you've said that these sideboards are integral to the design and/or the experience.  As a disinterested observer who hasn't yet played the course, how would you persuade me that the gimmick or quirk doesn't outweigh whatever advantages these sideboards promote.  I'm genuinely curious.

[Garland Bayley]

If the approach shot lands in the mounds to the front left and releases to the green, it will not stay on the green. Like many of the other sideboards, it will be punishing for US Open players.

This strikes me as purposefully gimmicky.  I've read that you've said that these sideboards are integral to the design and/or the experience.  As a disinterested observer who hasn't yet played the course, how would you persuade me that the gimmick or quirk doesn't outweigh whatever advantages these sideboards promote.  I'm genuinely curious.

Not so sure it's gimmicky, but rather just the hand RTJ II was dealt. The slope leading down to the course that the hole is built up against is simply to steep. When the GCA outing was there I asked Jay Blasi how the slope down from the street compared to the angle of repose. His response, "way beyond it." So if you are not even confident the earth will stay there, how can you expect a golf ball to?

[Richard Choi]

This strikes me as purposefully gimmicky.  I've read that you've said that these sideboards are integral to the design and/or the experience.  As a disinterested observer who hasn't yet played the course, how would you persuade me that the gimmick or quirk doesn't outweigh whatever advantages these sideboards promote.  I'm genuinely curious.

Not sure why you would label this gimmicky. Are bunkers gimmicky? What about water hazards?

To me, this is just another hazard that you must avoid (and there are ample options to play around it). But unlike bunkers where you punish mostly the high handicappers, this punishes the low handicappers. In normal playing conditions, this helps you with wayward shots and make shots around the green easier. And unlike water hazards, you do not lose your balls. I consider them almost ideal hazards, and not at all gimmicky.

[Garland Bayley]

...
However, to me, this is the best par 5 on the course. ...

To the directionally challenged, average golfer, this is the worst hole on the course, not just the worst par 5 on the course.
Has nothing to do with bunkers. Has mostly to do with death right and left, with little margin for error.

[Terry Lavin]

This strikes me as purposefully gimmicky.  I've read that you've said that these sideboards are integral to the design and/or the experience.  As a disinterested observer who hasn't yet played the course, how would you persuade me that the gimmick or quirk doesn't outweigh whatever advantages these sideboards promote.  I'm genuinely curious.

Not sure why you would label this gimmicky. Are bunkers gimmicky? What about water hazards?

To me, this is just another hazard that you must avoid (and there are ample options to play around it). But unlike bunkers where you punish mostly the high handicappers, this punishes the low handicappers. In normal playing conditions, this helps you with wayward shots and make shots around the green easier. And unlike water hazards, you do not lose your balls. I consider them almost ideal hazards, and not at all gimmicky.

Thanks for that analysis. I will watch the action on TV and see how it plays and how it's received.

[Michael Essig]

...
However, to me, this is the best par 5 on the course. ...

To the directionally challenged, average golfer, this is the worst hole on the course, not just the worst par 5 on the course.
Has nothing to do with bunkers. Has mostly to do with death right and left, with little margin for error.

I agree with Garland.  I dislike this hole immensely.  Architecturally speaking, this part of the property should never, ever have been used for the course. There was so much land available, why would you stick a hole on the side of the hill?   And they put two holes on the side of the hill - 8 and 9! (Sorry Richard for jumping ahead a little.)

Alternatively, they should have built 8 and 9 down below the hillside (if this is where the routing required two holes), and put grandstands on the hillsides overlooking the holes.  (Could have fit thousands of people in those grandstands, but that's the business side of me talking).  Instead, you get one or maybe both holes inaccessible for Open patrons because the holes were built on the hillside.  So that makes it a double-wammy for me the taxpaying golfer - a bad golf hole and no ticket revenue from selling grandstand seats.   And lastly, the hole goes uphill slightly, so a tough walk is made harder by the continued climb all the way to the 9th tee.   

For as many good, quality holes that exist at Chambers, these two holes just put a very sour taste in my mouth during the hole round; I dislike them that much.

[Jason Thurman]

Is the hillside left too steep for spectators to sit on? It looks like as good a seat as the hill on 6 at Augusta.

[Garland Bayley]

Is the hillside left too steep for spectators to sit on? It looks like as good a seat as the hill on 6 at Augusta.

To steep. I've always wondered if they could put in some permanent bleacher anchors and set up seating on the hill side, as then there would be steps to traverse up and down the hill. However, the more I think about it, it may be so steep that only the front row could be able to see action on the 8th as people sitting in front of you would block your vision down the hill as there is no relief from the edge of the hillside to the fairway.

If you weren't interested in seeing action on the 8th, you could use binocs to see almost the entire course from seating there.

[Michael Essig]

Is the hillside left too steep for spectators to sit on? It looks like as good a seat as the hill on 6 at Augusta.

To steep. I've always wondered if they could put in some permanent bleacher anchors and set up seating on the hill side, as then there would be steps to traverse up and down the hill. However, the more I think about it, it may be so steep that only the front row could be able to see action on the 8th as people sitting in front of you would block your vision down the hill as there is no relief from the edge of the hillside to the fairway.

If you weren't interested in seeing action on the 8th, you could use binocs to see almost the entire course from seating there.

I agree again with Garland. (Twice in one day.  This is a habit that must stop soon.  )

Because it appears that the builders of the golf course graded the property, I assume they could have softened the grade to allow for bleachers.  And as Garland states, I also believe you could have seen a number of holes from this section of the property using binoculars.  It would have taken stadium golf to a whole new level.

Don't forget, this course was built with the intention of attracting the US Open or a PGA.  So, I don't know how or why maximizing patrons wasn't planned for from the beginning. I have visualized the entire hillside being bleachers, which would have accommodated a few hundred thousand people.  Now, I am not saying they needed to plan for that, but the property has an entire hillside that overlooks the property, and I assume virtually none of it will be utilized for bleachers because of the steepness of the hillside.

IMHO, they should have moved #8  and #9 below the hillside, as I already stated, and put bleachers on the current #8 and tee box of #9.  For all the changes they have made to the course, it surprises me that this rerouting didn't happen. Imagine, 500-600 yards of bleachers on the hillside overlooking the entire course. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Richard,

Personally, I think not having any bunkers makes the hole pretty cool.

[Garland Bayley]

...
However, to me, this is the best par 5 on the course. ...

To the directionally challenged, average golfer, this is the worst hole on the course, not just the worst par 5 on the course.
Has nothing to do with bunkers. Has mostly to do with death right and left, with little margin for error.

I agree with Garland.  I dislike this hole immensely.  Architecturally speaking, this part of the property should never, ever have been used for the course. There was so much land available, why would you stick a hole on the side of the hill?   And they put two holes on the side of the hill - 8 and 9! (Sorry Richard for jumping ahead a little.)

Alternatively, they should have built 8 and 9 down below the hillside (if this is where the routing required two holes), and put grandstands on the hillsides overlooking the holes.  ...

We perhaps don't agree as much as you think. I love 9. I just think 8 needs a little fixing. They moved so much earth on the project, I just think they should have moved more on 8 to give something like drawn below. Two level fairway. Upper level very narrow for the tiger golfer, lower level to catch misses by the rabbits.



Also note that part of the reason the hole is where it is, is due to plans to put driving range/or even perhaps a resort hotel in the center of the course. You can see above that the area was used as a practice area to begin with.

[Jon Cavalier]

Granted, I've only played it once, and I know little of RTJs intent, but it seemed to me like 8 was built just to get 9 (which I really liked). Just my observation though.

[Richard Choi]

It is unfortunate that they are not installing bleachers on this slope. Without bleachers, the slope is too steep to allow people to freely roam. If you really desired, you can put as many people as you would at Indy 500 just on this slope.

I do not agree that this hole is too narrow.

Could it be wider? Sure. But it does bring a bit of variety to the course. There are plenty of holes with wider fairways at CB.

The only real problem with width on this hole is due to the heavy, thick rough on the left side where you can lose your ball. Without it, even the most hideous hooks would be playable. The right side has enough room to catch most slices. If you cannot stay within that room, you should be aiming much more to the left, since miss to there will almost always be findable and playable.

This hole gets a lot of flak because of lack of bunkers, but there is really a ton of interest here. This hole produced one of the biggest moment during US Am (hole in from the fairway), and I believe it will produce a lot of drama for US Open as well.

[Andy Levett]

Only played the course once but thought the 8th was a good hole and had the potential to be a great finisher for a major championship with stands on the hillside above.
For the reasons explained in Richard's original post there's potential for anything from a 3 to a 6 or worse and the drama that implies.
Both the absence of bunkers and the use of appropriate earthmoving to create golf where it wouldn't otherwise be possible seem GCA positives to me.
For 8 to be 18 simply flip the nines but begin with the current 9th, or insert a new par 3 elsewhere on the property.

[David Davis]

I have to admit the 8th is not one of my favorites either. I've felt that there is too much slope from left to right in the fairway even though I've almost always ended up in the same place as the ball ran down to the flat area. Often I rely on a faded drive, especially if I'm off my game and that's a challenge on this hole so twice I've played from the slight over the hill on the right side. Not a great position you feel after hitting the middle to left side of the fairway with a semi straight ball. I do respect that it's highly possible the correct shot for this holes does not easily fit into my skill level. Although then I wonder how playable it is for double digit hcp'ers. I watch my playing partner hit a draw into the slope half way through the fairway and when we got there his ball had apparently taken a tough bounce and roll and was half way down the slope on the right side.

While my personal least favorite type of hole would be one with OB tight right and a hard cross wind blowing in that direction this hole may be a close second in thinking even when hitting a draw into the middle to left of the slope could very well result in having the ball roll off on the right. 

[Sean Leary]

I have never heard that the lack of bunkers is why people dislike the hole, but Rich has played there more with me. I have always thought like Matthew that going down over the old practice range would have been better, which would have required a new 9th as well. Clearly the weakest  part of the course IMO.

[Matthew Essig]

I have never heard that the lack of bunkers is why people dislike the hole, but Rich has played there more with me. I have always thought like Matthew that going down over the old practice range would have been better, which would have required a new 9th as well. Clearly the weakest  part of the course IMO.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52695.0.html

[Richard Choi]

I don't think I have done a very good job of explaining why I like this hole so much. Let me try again.

If you are an accurate, consistent player (like Michael and David - Not Leary), I can see why you may not adore this hole much. If there is very little variation in your game, this hole probably would be boring.

However, if you are more like me and spray your ball a little, this is really a fascinating, intricate hole.

The fact that this hole is pretty much straight with consistent width from tee to green probably turns off many here. But I think that really adds to the drama. It adds drama for me because there are the same four outcomes available on every shot here; a ball on the high side of the fairway where you have the best angle and view, a ball on the low side of the fairway where you have a good lie, but no view or angle, a ball in the slope where your next shot is a total crap shoot, and a ball in the junk below the fairway on the right where you have no view, no lie, and no chance (but it is STILL PLAYABLE!).

If you play this hole a lot, these four outcomes are always on your mind, gnawing at you, because you know how bad outcome #3 and #4 are. On every shot, you have to consider your risk based on playing conditions and your lie. This is DOUBLY true if you messed up your previous shot and you have to figure out exactly how you are going to get out of the current conditions while not making things worse.

Because there is no water hazard or bunkers and the fairway is pretty consistent, the hole itself does not force your to make certain choices. What choice you make is COMPLETELY up to you based on your own risk analysis. This hole is like a rubics cube that unfurls itself whenever you make a poor choice or a poor shot. I will hit EVERY club in my bag on this hole in about 5 or 6 plays. I am not sure I can say that about any hole that I have played anywhere else.

For me, that is very precious. This hole never gets boring for me. There is always some new challenge that I have to solve, new risk profile that I have to figure out, new shots that I have to invent.

I am not sure if this will be true for US Open players. Most likely not. But for a player like me, this is a true, glorious playground unlike anything else.