I'm Back

[Nate Oxman]

The seventh at Pocono Manor's East Course (Ross and later Flynn I think) is 77 yards on the card but plays much less downhill.

[George Pazin]

Not necessarily.

I submit Tom will need to quantify which portions of the design process are the most integral to producing a top quality golf course.

After all, with enough time and money, EVERYTHING could be duplicated, down to slopes, soil characteristics, grass strain, percentage of clover, etc.

Not practical, I get that.

In making this statement, I'm establishing a bias toward the routing as the most important component of a great course. Bad details certainly can harm the final grade. Good details certainly maintain, or even help the course.

But, if you have detailing of 15 on a scale of 10 to a routing that's a 2, how high does the final grade get to be for that course?

Jonathan, allow me to preface this by saying I haven't read enough of your posts to place you in a proper context, but I will simply say that routing is the first AND last thing I personally would rate in a course. And many or most of the in between points, as well.

By making the comment I did, I simply meant that whoever did the course must have really screwed things - the greens and the shaping - up pretty badly for Tom D to even ask the question. I was trying to say that, while Bogey's heart is in the right place by assigning such a high value to God's input, perhaps the course may be less deserving than even he believes. Or He, for that matter.

 

[Tim_Weiman]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

If you, Bill and Ben, The Good Doctor Donald J. Ross and a few others can create a 10, can't we at least give God an 8?

Bogey

As long as God had one of his best days.  None of us build 10's all the time.

Great posts!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Many architects would not put routing at the top. This has always surprised me because it's not the way I think. Still, I can understand it at the same time.

[MClutterbuck]

Tom, did you get to Olivos outside Buenos Aires? Its the only course I've played down there. It has hosted the Argentine Open a number of times.

I didn't get to Olivos.  I only had two days in Buenos Aires, and I tried to concentrate on courses that Darius and Masa hadn't already seen.  So, I played San Andres [that's Spanish for St. Andrews, the oldest course in the city] and Nordelta, and walked Pilara and Ellerstina, in addition to a return visit to The Jockey Club.

Ellerstina is Matt Dusenberry's work, and maybe the best private golf course I've seen ... especially if you include the ambiance of all the polo ponies that live there.

Tom,
By private, do you mean owned by a single person? 

In this case, owned by a single family, and basically played only by this family (father and 3 kids), and a partner that is in town maybe 6 weeks a year.

[Adam Lawrence]

Tom, did you get to Olivos outside Buenos Aires? Its the only course I've played down there. It has hosted the Argentine Open a number of times.

I didn't get to Olivos.  I only had two days in Buenos Aires, and I tried to concentrate on courses that Darius and Masa hadn't already seen.  So, I played San Andres [that's Spanish for St. Andrews, the oldest course in the city] and Nordelta, and walked Pilara and Ellerstina, in addition to a return visit to The Jockey Club.

Ellerstina is Matt Dusenberry's work, and maybe the best private golf course I've seen ... especially if you include the ambiance of all the polo ponies that live there.

Tom,
By private, do you mean owned by a single person? 

In this case, owned by a single family, and basically played only by this family (father and 3 kids), and a partner that is in town maybe 6 weeks a year.

It looks pretty cool from the material on Matt's website.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, did you get to Olivos outside Buenos Aires? Its the only course I've played down there. It has hosted the Argentine Open a number of times.

I didn't get to Olivos.  I only had two days in Buenos Aires, and I tried to concentrate on courses that Darius and Masa hadn't already seen.  So, I played San Andres [that's Spanish for St. Andrews, the oldest course in the city] and Nordelta, and walked Pilara and Ellerstina, in addition to a return visit to The Jockey Club.

Ellerstina is Matt Dusenberry's work, and maybe the best private golf course I've seen ... especially if you include the ambiance of all the polo ponies that live there.

How would you compare Wolf Point to Ellerstina?   Wolf Point is the only truly private course I've played.  It's pretty terrific. 

[Tom_Doak]

How would you compare Wolf Point to Ellerstina?   Wolf Point is the only truly private course I've played.  It's pretty terrific. 

Bill:

I am a big fan of Wolf Point, too.  They are both very good, but very different.  Wolf Point is a real 18-hole course, with adaptations for the fact that it only has one member.

Ellerstina is more like The Sheep Ranch ... a very compact design with nine greens and a lot of fairway in between, so that you can play from different starting points to the same green.  The greens are generally on the perimeter, so there are only a couple where you would be approaching from 180 degrees opposite directions; but the bunkering and the sight lines are extremely well done so that the various holes to a green site have their own strategy.

The advantage of Ellerstina is that there is less area to maintain because it's so compact ... which is a big consideration when one man is paying for the maintenance.  Note that I didn't say it was a better golf course than Wolf Point, but it seems a better solution to the problem of a private course.

[Adam Lawrence]

There's a page on Ellerstina on Matt's website here: (you'll have to scroll down)

http://www.dusenberrydesign.com/assets/final_dd-qualifications-and-portfolio---jan-26-2015.pdf

[Tom_Doak]

It's also worth having a look on Google Earth in 3D just to see it's bizarre location and that of the city of La Paz itself to be honest. The city and Bolivia as a whole is one of the craziest greatest places I've ever been. Tom, I'm not sure how much if any was filmed there but lots of the Bond film Quantum of Solace was based in Bolivia.

Tom:  I looked this up today, because I had a hard time believing that any film studio would deal with Evo Morales and the crowd-control issues that would make filming in Bolivia VERY difficult.  Sure enough, the Bolivian scenes were shot in Panama City.  La Paz still cries out for a fearless film maker.

[Garland Bayley]

It's also worth having a look on Google Earth in 3D just to see it's bizarre location and that of the city of La Paz itself to be honest. The city and Bolivia as a whole is one of the craziest greatest places I've ever been. Tom, I'm not sure how much if any was filmed there but lots of the Bond film Quantum of Solace was based in Bolivia.

Tom:  I looked this up today, because I had a hard time believing that any film studio would deal with Evo Morales and the crowd-control issues that would make filming in Bolivia VERY difficult.  Sure enough, the Bolivian scenes were shot in Panama City.  La Paz still cries out for a fearless film maker.

Please don't tell me Top Gear Bolivia Special (Season 14 Episode 6) wasn't filmed in Bolivia.