I'm Back

[Tom_Doak]

from 16 days in South America.  What a trip!  I saw 8 courses in Chile, 15 [!] in Argentina, and one in Bolivia, the La Paz Golf Club.

For starters, I've got to thank fellow site member Randy Thompson, who was my travel agent, guide, and translator for most of the trip, in trade for two weeks of free critiques and business advice.  I never would have thought to see a couple of the courses we saw without his advice.  By the same token, courtesy of site member Marcos Clutterbuck, we got to see a couple of courses in Argentina which weren't on our radar at all going into the deal, and those were pretty fantastic, too.

I will try to post a few thoughts and photos here over the next couple of weeks, though I've got some books to ship and some design work to catch up on, too.  I still don't do any of the photo-sharing services, so if someone wants to help on that end, I'd be grateful.

In the meantime, a few teasers:

1.  Does anybody know anything about the Argentine professional, Juan Denton?  A couple of sources show him as having something to do with MacKenzie's visit to Argentina, but The Jockey Club's history doesn't mention him, and the timeline seems wrong ... he laid out both Mar del Plata and La Cumbre before MacKenzie left Europe, and they are still two of the best courses in Argentina, though handicapped by very small acreages.  [Mar del Plata is 70 acres, and if not for a recent lawsuit over fencing the boundaries, it would be the best course in South America.]

2.  What's the shortest hole you've ever seen?  My new record-holder is the 12th at La Cumbre.  It's 66 yards!  If you look at it on Google Earth you'll wonder why there would be a practice green in that corner of the property, until you count how many holes they have.

3.  Does anybody know the name Matt Dusenberry?  He's responsible for some of the best work in Argentina, too, but I'd never heard his name before I went there.  [I do know more about him now.]

4.  Neither Randy nor my friend David Lee [who did the rest of the trip with us] went with me to Bolivia, but I was warmly greeted by the manager at La Paz Golf Club.  They should shoot a Bond film in La Paz, if only a film studio could deal with the government.  They've recently installed new public transportation there -- a series of cable cars, to deal with the elevation changes!  And the golf course was one of the most memorable I've seen, not just because drives travel 50-75 yards further at 10,500 feet.

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

[Adam Lawrence]

Matt is ex Greg Norman's firm. He's currently doing a renovation of the Keney Park course in Hartford, CT.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have been to La Paz golf club, how about that moonlike landscape!!!

[Andrew Bernstein]

2.  What's the shortest hole you've ever seen?  My new record-holder is the 12th at La Cumbre.  It's 66 yards!  If you look at it on Google Earth you'll wonder why there would be a practice green in that corner of the property, until you count how many holes they have.

There's so much talk on this forum about half-shotters, why not have a par 2.5 in a round? Given the knowledge of my own game, I'm almost certain to score worse on a 66 yard hole than a 100 yard hole.

[Jud_T]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

5?

[jeffwarne]

2.  What's the shortest hole you've ever seen?  My new record-holder is the 12th at La Cumbre.  It's 66 yards!  If you look at it on Google Earth you'll wonder why there would be a practice green in that corner of the property, until you count how many holes they have.

There's so much talk on this forum about half-shotters, why not have a par 2.5 in a round? Given the knowledge of my own game, I'm almost certain to score worse on a 66 yard hole than a 100 yard hole.

as long as they'd give you a 34 yard area behind you   to lay back to you'd be fine

[Jeff Evagues]

Tom, did you get to Olivos outside Buenos Aires? Its the only course I've played down there. It has hosted the Argentine Open a number of times.

[Bret Lawrence]

In the meantime, a few teasers:

2.  What's the shortest hole you've ever seen?  My new record-holder is the 12th at La Cumbre.  It's 66 yards!  If you look at it on Google Earth you'll wonder why there would be a practice green in that corner of the property, until you count how many holes they have.

Tom,

Welcome Home!  The shortest hole I have ever played or seen was Donald Ross' 7th hole at Pocono Manor East in Pennsylvania.  This hole is a 77 yard Par 3, (all down hill).  I remember reading a story of how Arnold Palmer made a mess of this hole in a tournament or exhibition, but I can't seem to locate the reference.  66 yards sounds like it takes the cake!

Bret

[jeffwarne]

In the meantime, a few teasers:

2.  What's the shortest hole you've ever seen?  My new record-holder is the 12th at La Cumbre.  It's 66 yards!  If you look at it on Google Earth you'll wonder why there would be a practice green in that corner of the property, until you count how many holes they have.

Tom,

Welcome Home!  The shortest hole I have ever played or seen was Donald Ross' 7th hole at Pocono Manor East in Pennsylvania.  This hole is a 77 yard Par 3, (all down hill).  I remember reading a story of how Arnold Palmer made a mess of this hole in a tournament or exhibition, but I can't seem to locate the reference.  66 yards sounds like it takes the cake!

Bret

Belle Meade in Thompson Ga has/had a 75 yarder downhill.
I played in a high school match with a guy who aced it, then hit the pin with his tee shot on the next hole a 247 yard par 4 leaving an uphill 2 footer for eagle.
He then horseshoed the putt and watched it roll right by him off the green 50 yards in front of the green from where he ended up making double.

[Peter Pallotta]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

5?

Tom's a sucker for eye candy. The great routing will offsets the dull greens and average shaping, so what's left is a great site/property -- the element that TD knows means so much in terms of a course's impact. I think he can find it in him to go as high as 8.
Peter

[Philip Hensley]

Grand over resort in Greensboro had a 64yd one-shotter last year. Not sure if that was regular length or tee was moved up. Wicked green that gave you almost no place to miss and if you did and were in the wrong spot it was a guaranteed 3-putt. Oh and there is a creek running in front of it in case you want to challenge front hole location.

4 guys, 5-12 handicaps. 2 guys duff tee balls, one in the creek the other short of it. Both hit next shots thin over the green, now in a downslope facing bunker.

Other two guys miss long and wide. No one makes a par, pretty sure the hole was won with a 5.

All of that to say, why not more sub-100 yard one-shotters?

[Jim Nugent]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

Here is how Tom describes an "8" on his scale:

"One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout."

So, great layout, great property, (likely) one of the very best in its region, drawbacks seem clearly spelled out.  Is the course worth a special trip to see?  Does it have something really special to make up for the drawbacks? 

Another question: what are the greens like at the Himalayas Course, that Tom ranked as 11?  The shaping? 

[Tom Kelly]

A few photos of La Paz to give you all an idea of what it's like, I've got more buried somewhere in the depths of my computer at home but can't get to them now.

It claims to be the highest golf course in the world, or at least full 18 capable of holding a 'championship'.





On the 200 odd yard second tee my caddy he hands me a 7 iron, even with the altitude I felt that was rather optimistic so I respond no, seis por favor and proceed to hit it about 15 yards over the back of the green. I'll never forget his face when I hand him back the club, needless to say I hit whatever club he gave me from then on. I spent the front nine with one of the pros, and the back just me and my caddy. They couldn't speak a word of English and my Spanish extends to the line above yet it was one of the most memorable rounds I've ever played, so surreal.

I think I averaged about 350yds off the tee...that's not even exaggerating.

It's also worth having a look on Google Earth in 3D just to see it's bizarre location and that of the city of La Paz itself to be honest. The city and Bolivia as a whole is one of the craziest greatest places I've ever been. Tom, I'm not sure how much if any was filmed there but lots of the Bond film Quantum of Solace was based in Bolivia.

[Jim Nugent]

Question for Tom: if you were given a somewhat free hand, what could you do with that course that has great routing and property, but ordinary greens and C- shaping? 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, did you get to Olivos outside Buenos Aires? Its the only course I've played down there. It has hosted the Argentine Open a number of times.

I didn't get to Olivos.  I only had two days in Buenos Aires, and I tried to concentrate on courses that Darius and Masa hadn't already seen.  So, I played San Andres [that's Spanish for St. Andrews, the oldest course in the city] and Nordelta, and walked Pilara and Ellerstina, in addition to a return visit to The Jockey Club.

Ellerstina is Matt Dusenberry's work, and maybe the best private golf course I've seen ... especially if you include the ambiance of all the polo ponies that live there.

[Tom_Doak]

Grand over resort in Greensboro had a 64yd one-shotter last year. Not sure if that was regular length or tee was moved up. Wicked green that gave you almost no place to miss and if you did and were in the wrong spot it was a guaranteed 3-putt. Oh and there is a creek running in front of it in case you want to challenge front hole location.

4 guys, 5-12 handicaps. 2 guys duff tee balls, one in the creek the other short of it. Both hit next shots thin over the green, now in a downslope facing bunker.

Other two guys miss long and wide. No one makes a par, pretty sure the hole was won with a 5.

All of that to say, why not more sub-100 yard one-shotters?

I have never seriously considered building a hole shorter than 100 yards ... in fact, it would be hard to identify one on a site, to be honest, it's just outside of the scale we are used to looking at things.  Plus, I've always thought of it as an obvious attempt at novelty or quirk that would be dismissed as such, especially by the players who messed up the hole.

However, I thought the hole at La Cumbre [Arg.] was a really good hole, and I've gotten great feedback about the 5th at Streamsong when it is set up very short [middle tee to front pins is less than 100 yards], so I'm starting to warm to the idea.

[Jud_T]

Jim/Peter,

I was going by the CG review of Desert Forest- "Only the large, plain greens keep it from being my favorite desert layout- 6".  This will be an interesting case as the greens have since been redone by Dave Zinkand.

[Bill_McBride]

There's a lovely little nine hole course, Glenbrook, on the eastern shore of Lake Tahoe, that had some holes carved out of the ponderosa pine and others in a meadow along the lake.  The third was an 85-yard pitch across a huge bunker to a rather large green.  Directly behind the green to distract you was the shore of Lake Tahoe.   This was resort golf and a lot of fun.  The next hole was an uphill 225 yard hole so an interesting back to back pair. 

[Mike Hendren]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

If you, Bill and Ben, The Good Doctor Donald J. Ross and a few others can create a 10, can't we at least give God an 8?

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

If you, Bill and Ben, The Good Doctor Donald J. Ross and a few others can create a 10, can't we at least give God an 8?

Bogey

As long as God had one of his best days.  None of us build 10's all the time.

[Garland Bayley]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

If you, Bill and Ben, The Good Doctor Donald J. Ross and a few others can create a 10, can't we at least give God an 8?

Bogey

As long as God had one of his best days.  None of us build 10's all the time.

The League of Gods: Coore & Crenshaw, Alister Mackenzie, Donald Ross, Tom Doak, and Yahweh.

[Jason Topp]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

The muni I grew up on fits this description precisely (although C- might be generous).  Great land, incredible fairway slopes leading to greens that look like they were built by a road contractor - big ovals pushed up with contours that I suspect only have shown up due to 50 years of settlement. 

I still love playing the course but wonder how good it could be in the right hands.  I also wonder whether improving the course makes sense.  It provides quality golf at $21 per round as it is.  http://waveland.foreuphosting4.com/

[George Pazin]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

If you, Bill and Ben, The Good Doctor Donald J. Ross and a few others can create a 10, can't we at least give God an 8?

Bogey

Not if the archie deserves negative points, which it sounds like.

I say no more than 3-5, perhaps with an asterisk.

[Jonathan Mallard]

5.  How high can a course get on the Doak scale get with dull greens and C-minus shaping, if it's a great routing on great property?  I've never faced this question before, but now I've got three months to decide.

If you, Bill and Ben, The Good Doctor Donald J. Ross and a few others can create a 10, can't we at least give God an 8?

Bogey

Not if the archie deserves negative points, which it sounds like.

I say no more than 3-5, perhaps with an asterisk.

Not necessarily.

I submit Tom will need to quantify which portions of the design process are the most integral to producing a top quality golf course.

After all, with enough time and money, EVERYTHING could be duplicated, down to slopes, soil characteristics, grass strain, percentage of clover, etc.

Not practical, I get that.

In making this statement, I'm establishing a bias toward the routing as the most important component of a great course. Bad details certainly can harm the final grade. Good details certainly maintain, or even help the course.

But, if you have detailing of 15 on a scale of 10 to a routing that's a 2, how high does the final grade get to be for that course?

[Carl Nichols]

Tom, did you get to Olivos outside Buenos Aires? Its the only course I've played down there. It has hosted the Argentine Open a number of times.

I didn't get to Olivos.  I only had two days in Buenos Aires, and I tried to concentrate on courses that Darius and Masa hadn't already seen.  So, I played San Andres [that's Spanish for St. Andrews, the oldest course in the city] and Nordelta, and walked Pilara and Ellerstina, in addition to a return visit to The Jockey Club.

Ellerstina is Matt Dusenberry's work, and maybe the best private golf course I've seen ... especially if you include the ambiance of all the polo ponies that live there.

Tom,
By private, do you mean owned by a single person?