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Mark Chaplin

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Dogs AND ladies allowed
« on: March 04, 2015, 01:08:29 PM »
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Cave Nil Vino

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 06:08:17 PM »
Was this expected?

That leaves Troon and Muirfield in Britain. Are there any lesser profile clubs with male only membership or are they the only two?
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 02:59:06 AM »
Ally,

I believe Troon are looking at amalgamating their lady's and men's memberships in the near future. I suspect Muirfield will follow.
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Lyne Morrison

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 03:11:10 AM »
Well, this makes my forthcoming visit more meaningful.

Good to see.
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Niall C

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 10:17:26 AM »
About bloody time. Imagine leaving your dog outside in this day and age. Shocking.

Niall
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Niall C

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 10:27:41 AM »
Jon

Troon has a Committee looking at it but not sure if their is much appetite for it with the Portland Ladies club even if the ladies wanted to give up their single sex status. I suspect the torrent of abuse they will get in the lead up and possibly during and after next years Open might change their minds.

Ally

Off the top of my head there's Western Gailes, Glasgow GC and Pollok GC in the west of Scotland, and through in the east their are still the other St Andrews clubs including the ladies club. Rumour has it Peter Dawson was seen walking up and down waving a placard outside the ladies clubhouse demanding change.

What about Panmure, is that all male ? Royal Burgess ?

I dare say there are also a few others down south.

Niall
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 06:16:34 PM »
Quote from: Lyne Morrison on March 05, 2015, 03:11:10 AM
Well, this makes my forthcoming visit more meaningful.

Good to see.

Sadly if you play at Muirfield you'll still have lunch inn the secretary's office, unless things have changed since 2007.
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Lyne Morrison

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2015, 05:56:34 AM »

Thanks Bill,

I trust that the number of women who find it acceptable to be required 'to take luncheon' with a probably gracious, but possibly Carson-esque Secretary, will be few.

(Note: Carson is the butler in Downton Abbey, circa 1920s)

By the way and of interest, Sunningdale at one point "took out an insurance to protect the clubhouse premises 'from retribution by Suffragettes'¯."

Cheers, Lyne
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2015, 06:01:17 AM »
Stuart McEwen, the new-ish secretary at Muirfield (ex Kingsbarns GM) is about as un Downtown a guy as you could wish to meet!
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Adam Lawrence

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Josh Stevens

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2015, 08:00:15 AM »
Was the sign "No dogs and no women" real or an urban myth?
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Jud_T

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2015, 08:26:58 AM »
Just shows how important the R&A finally getting a clue was.  All the Open clubs will roll over in quick succession now.  Even the boys at Muirfield must know where their bread is buttered...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2015, 09:25:01 AM »
Lyne

The R&A also looked into getting insurance for their clubhouse against suffragettes about 1913 but not sure whether they carried it through. Clearly the early lady golfers were an unruly bunch.

Jon

I met up with a couple of pals during the week, both of whom are Troon members. When I asked them the question they kind of rolled their eyes and pointed out that the Ladies club at Troon has shown no interest in amalgamation in the past when approached on more than one occasion by the main club. Apparently both parties are happy with the status quo and neither has any plans to become mixed sex in the future.

That's not to say they don't see the impending tsunami of abuse from political activists and left wing media that's about to come their way when they stage the Open next year. At the moment they are endeavouring to deal with that by pointing out the role of the ladies club in the planning for the Open. Not that that is anything new, as they were involved in previous Opens as well. Something tells me they might need more than that to withstand the tide of political correctness. Perhaps a comment from Belle Robertson, newly minted member of the R&A and long standing member of Troon Ladies might help, who knows.

Niall
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2015, 11:10:03 AM »
Niall,

it is the press driven 'will of the public' that will sadly prevail. Golf is an easy target which is why single sex teams in football, rugby, etc. seem to get a free pass. Lunacy  ::)

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Mark Pearce

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2015, 01:19:57 PM »
Niall,

I don't know about the Burgess but Bruntsfield remains men only.
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jeffwarne

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2015, 02:30:56 PM »
Quote from: Niall Carlton on March 07, 2015, 09:25:01 AM
Lyne


Jon

I met up with a couple of pals during the week, both of whom are Troon members. When I asked them the question they kind of rolled their eyes and pointed out that the Ladies club at Troon has shown no interest in amalgamation in the past when approached on more than one occasion by the main club. Apparently both parties are happy with the status quo and neither has any plans to become mixed sex in the future.



Niall

why is there not a groundswell of opposition amongst the male members who cannot join the Ladies Club?
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Lyne Morrison

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 06:21:41 PM »
My view is that those clubs who would prefer to maintain single gender memberships should withdraw their involvement from high profile events.

Why? Because of the influence such tournaments have on the bigger picture. The local, national and international forum of the game impacts player participation across all levels. Marginalising 50% of the population does not bode well for the future of the game.

Relevant leading commentary:

Giles Morgan, head of global sponsorship for HSBC:
“It’s a very uneasy position for the bank,” ... “We would like to see it solved so we don’t keep talking about it. When you are showcasing one of the world’s greatest tournaments, it would be much more palatable if it were played where there was not a sense of segregation.”

Helen Grant, UK sports minister:
"I am pleased that the members of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews have voted in favour of admitting women members...This is positive news for the sport, and I hope we will now see other golf clubs that still have outdated same-sex policies follow suit. With golf in the next Olympics, there is a huge opportunity for the sport to grow, and this sends out the right, inclusive message that golf is for everyone."

The LPGA:
“The LPGA is happy to hear that the members of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club in St. Andrews have voted to include female members. This decision is certainly a step in the right direction and one that better captures the current diversity and inclusiveness of our great game.”
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Jud_T

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2015, 07:51:12 PM »
Lyne,

Exactly why they'll all fall in line.  You can't have your cake and eat it forever.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 09:38:20 AM by Jud_T »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2015, 04:35:13 AM »
Lynn,

then in principal, you must be in favour of making the mens and ladies tours join up. Both single gender, high profile memberships organisations.

I understand why you think it okay to single out certain clubs and do not disagree with your view point but it is tough call to cherry pick the cases. I would be interested in your take on the single gender membership tour situation.

Jon
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 04:38:50 AM by Jon Wiggett »
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Sean_A

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2015, 05:09:28 AM »
Jon

I think both Jud and Lynn are arguing that only the pro/high profile tournament clubs should drop the men only deal due to some vague notion of equality.  But the bottom line is money drives these decisions.  If clubs want to remain in the cash loop they must bow to the money master.  Sure, the entire push is media driven and largely meaningless in real terms of golf; how it is played and if it will grow.  What concerns me much more is what is being done with all the money clubs rake in...money can do at least as much harm as good if it is in the wrong hands.  Is it possible that hosting high profile events is the worst thing that can be done in terms of preserving why these courses were chosen to host?  I would also say clubs being forced to admit members is one more step in the homoginization of the game and its great courses.  I guess its the way forward in the modern world...if a nail sticks up, bang it down to the same level as the other nails. 

Ciao
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Jud_T

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2015, 06:21:21 AM »
Sean,

No one is being forced.  Clubs choose to stay on the Open rota due to prestige and rankings.  They could choose otherwise, hence the voting.  Same reason they add length, move bunkers etc. Keeping up with the Joneses is a bitch.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 07:35:07 AM by Jud_T »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2015, 06:34:25 AM »
Okay, "forced" is not quite right.  Shall we say blackmailed? Coerced?  In your zealous attempt to be the knight in shining armor, I think you missed my point  ::) For instance, what does a Muirfield do with the cash they get for hosting an Open? Its not like the club (or any Open club) needs the money.  Its hard to imagine the visitor faucet being turned off because the Open no longer comes to town.  Its also hard to imagine a significant enough drop in the rankings to impact visitor cash.    

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 06:39:33 AM by Sean_A »
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Jud_T

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2015, 07:01:10 AM »
I agree that they're victims of their own success and don't need the cash.  I'm also willing to bet you a day there that they roll over like the rest of 'em. There have been instances of clubs saying no however, i.e. Butler National, so it wouldn't be without precedent.  Just strikes me that status might be more important to them than the sausage fest.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 08:25:26 AM by Jud_T »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2015, 09:05:59 AM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on March 07, 2015, 02:30:56 PM
Quote from: Niall Carlton on March 07, 2015, 09:25:01 AM
Lyne


Jon

I met up with a couple of pals during the week, both of whom are Troon members. When I asked them the question they kind of rolled their eyes and pointed out that the Ladies club at Troon has shown no interest in amalgamation in the past when approached on more than one occasion by the main club. Apparently both parties are happy with the status quo and neither has any plans to become mixed sex in the future.



Niall

why is there not a groundswell of opposition amongst the male members who cannot join the Ladies Club?

Jeff

I don't think there is a groundswell either way. If you want to join a golf club in Scotland and probably the rest of the UK you will have plenty of options whether you are male or female, want to join a mixed club or single sex club. And when you've joined a particular club then presumably you are happy with the set up so why would you want to change ?

From what I can see the clamour for change is from people outwith clubs, and perhaps outwith golf, who are trying to make political statements. That's not to say existing members aren't being forced into looking at change as outside pressure is brought to bear eg. the R&A. That's why I think Muirfield will go mixed ahead of Troon irrespective if they decide to continue hosting the Open. Muirfield probably has more high ranking legal people and civil servants than Troon and soon it will become  a liability to be a member of a single sex club.

Niall
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Niall C

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2015, 09:09:20 AM »
Quote from: Jud_T on March 08, 2015, 06:21:21 AM
Sean,

No one is being forced.  Clubs choose to stay on the Open rota due to prestige and rankings.  They could choose otherwise, hence the voting.  Same reason they add length, move bunkers etc. Keeping up with the Joneses is a bitch.

No one is being forced !!!!!!!! Priceless  ::)

Niall
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Jud_T

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Re: Dogs AND ladies allowed
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2015, 09:22:40 AM »
Niall,

Just accept that this might be easier for you to swallow than the inevitable transgendered golfer at single sex clubs debate... 8)
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak
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