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Jim Franklin

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Totteridge
« on: September 04, 2003, 10:30:51 AM »
Has anyone played this course and if so what do you think? It is a Rees Jones design in Western PA.
Mr Hurricane

david h. carroll

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2003, 10:37:06 AM »
Senor Hurricane--it seems to me that you are seeking knowledge of an establishment which must be near your next journey...have a good time ;) ;)

david h. carroll

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2003, 10:46:53 AM »
http://www.totteridge.com/course.asp  

they have a yardage book posted....they've also deemed themsleves a "Rees Masterpiece"--that alone says it all ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2003, 10:56:44 AM »
The more things change...

« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 10:56:59 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Jim Franklin

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2003, 11:00:37 AM »
Thanks for the site DC.

Has anyone played here as Matt and Pat correctly say you cannot judge a course by pictures alone.
Mr Hurricane

JohnV

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2003, 11:04:27 AM »
Mike, I've only played the course once, but sometimes yardage books don't tell the full story.  The hole you've pictured is uphill to the landing zone and down a little to the green, with a blind tee shot for the longer hitters.  If you can hit it far enough to get it over the hill you get a good boost forward.  The green has definite interest as I think you can see from the diagram on the left.  You need to control your distance well or the putts become very difficult.

In general this is a good course with only one or two weaker holes.  Some of the routing is not the best in places and it is not really walkable, but in general I enjoyed this course a lot.

The bunkers do tend to have the usual Rees Jones style that has been discussed and abused ad infinitum on this site, but they are generally well positioned and there are a number of strategically place ones (although none in the middle of fairways as I recall.

I wouldn't say that this was a Top 100 Modern, but it is probably in the 150 to 300 range.

The Forecaddie

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2003, 11:22:34 AM »
Like the other 800-1000 courses that are in that same range correct?:)

Matt_Ward

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2003, 11:25:10 AM »
Mr. Hurricane:

Played the course last year. It was created as another "get-away" layout for a group of guys who belong to a number of long time private clubs in the Pittsburgh area -- notably Oakmont and a few others.

The basics of the course are as follows: plays about 7,200 yards from the tips and rates near or slightly above 75 from the tips with a slope, I believe, around 138-140.

The course is on rolling land that features more woods on the back nine. Unfortunately, the layout doesn't really offer the kind of progression of quality holes found in other Rees Jones layouts -- namely Olde Kinderhook IMHO. The course isn't anywhere near as bad as Tattersall (to be avoided at all costs) -- another Jones course located in the Phillie suburbs.

The stylistic trademarks of Rees Jones are evident -- and for those who rant about such matters it may behoove them to skip the layout. What do I mean? There is a good bit of shaping and the elements of man's hands seem to superimpose themselves on the wonderful western Pennsy layout.

Totteridge is not an easy course by any means -- you must hit it straight and long on a number of holes and there are a few greens of note that have enough contour to keep you guessing.

Is the course worthy of a visit if an invite to the Field Club or Fox Chapel is available (I'm not mentioning Oakmont because if an invite happens anyone would be a dam fool to miss playing there) then I would say you'd be better off seeing those two architecturally more compelling layouts.

Totterridge does have a number of good holes -- the par-5's are all fairly demanding -- you don't get an easy birdie with the play of just one shot. The ending holes on both sides are also somewhat lacking -- not for demands but for originality. They both play in the same direction and as a result it's duplicative and could have been somewhat more imaginative.

For those folks who detest Rees Jones it's best to play elsewhere. For those who want to see a layout that clearly can be testing (depending upon the tee's one plays) and has a number of holes that do provide some clear challenge then playing Totteridge will be something to enjoy.

Overall -- on the Doak scale -- I'd give it a five because like other big name designer courses that have opened in Western Pennsy -- places such as Nevillewood by Nicklaus and Diamond Run(?) by Player the courses have the ingredients of solid golf but the extras one would like to see from a higher combination of architecture and shot values is lacking IMHO.

Mr. Hurricane -- if you want a course that does provide a bit of difference from the big name designers try Birdsfoot which is 35 miles northeast of Pittsburgh in the town of Freeport (tel # 724/295-3656 (www.birdsfoot.com). The course is designed by Ault Clark & Associates and although that firm has designed many pro forma layouts this one is indeed a bit different and special IMHO.

The course has superb turf (the superintendent was an assistant at Oakmont and handled the duties for several years at Quick Silver in Midway) and the holes have plenty of variety to keep just about anyone's interest -- once again the terrain of Western PA is on prime display here! The layout maxes out to just under 7,050 yards and I believe carries a 74.4 rating with a 137 slope.

The best hole may be the closer which plays about 470 yards from the tips and features a superb split fairway that calls upon the player to decide on your line of attack. The green is also well done as it falls off on a few sides. The course is certainly worth a look for those with time to spare and the folks there are nothing but first class all the way. Give it a try if time permits.

George Pazin

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2003, 12:00:38 PM »
Nice writeup, Matt.

Re: Birdsfoot - JohnV & I played there a couple months ago & I did a little writeup on it probably 6 weeks ago. I'll look it up - I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2003, 12:13:23 PM »
George --

Would be most interested.

I really enjoyed Birdsfoot -- it uses the property so well and the shape is definitely first rate. Also, you can't beat the price and the folks there, as I previously mentioned, are first class.

What's unique is the uphilllllllllllllllll -- driving range. It's somewhat similar to the one you find at Tattersall in West Chester, PA. ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2003, 01:11:46 PM »
Call me a pri*K but I just love this thing...

Perhaps we can get Mike Miller to do a rendering from ground level?  ;)





and, one has to enjoy the strategy on this one, I'm certain...



Should I continue?  My eyes are burning!!   :P


Mike_Cirba

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2003, 01:15:06 PM »
Oh..why not?  One more?

How big do you think that second fairway is?


Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2003, 01:51:55 PM »
What's unique is the uphilllllllllllllllll -- driving range. It's somewhat similar to the one you find at Tattersall in West Chester, PA. ;)

How similar is it to Baltusrol's uphilllllllllll driving range?

JohnV

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2003, 02:12:25 PM »
Mike, while I don't have a problem with passing some amount of judgement on a course based on pictures, to do it based on an artists renderings is going a bit far.  You have absolutely no idea of the terrain on these holes.  #2 is a decent par 4, #4 is a good par 5 where the closer you are willing to take it to the trees/creek on the left the more opportunity you have to get on in 2.  If you play right, the bunker on the right side of the green is very deep and menacing.  #6 is a good short par 4 playing slightly uphill, you can layup or take the risk and drive it up close for a simple chip.  #7 is probably the worst hole on the property.  It is severly downhill and you better pray that you get in one of the fairway areas or you are left with a hanging lie in the rough between them.  While none of these golf holes will be in the next edition of the 500 Greatest Golf Holes, only #7 deserves real scorn.

You seem to be totally willing to pass judgement on a course based strictly on the architect and the artists rendering.  Perhaps I'm going to be on Pat Mucci's side this time. :o  (Help me Dr. Katz)

Jim Franklin

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2003, 03:04:40 PM »
Matt -

Thanks for the analysis. We are playing Oakmont in the morning and The Field club just plugged their greens. I don't believe we tried Fox Chapel, but I look forward to Totteridge.
Mr Hurricane

The Forecaddie

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2003, 04:37:30 PM »
How many Rees pieces mounds are on this course?

My God! One of those illustrations looks like the land was hit with a staff infection!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 04:38:42 PM by The Forecaddie »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2003, 04:38:51 PM »
John V;

I'm not judging, and I'm only trying to be satirically humorous here.  

Although, I must say that it looks as though the artist tried diligently to create a very realistic looking rendering.  Given that, I'd say that he got the look of;

1) Rows of Containment Mounds along each hole
2) Bowled, Concave Fairways
3) Squiggly and fussy bunker shaping
4) Fairly interesting, intricate green contours

...down perfectly.

Would you agree?  
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 04:39:48 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2003, 04:53:58 PM »
Mike,

Perhaps you can judge better by the pics, which I'm not sure
why you didn't just post in the first place from the web site:

#1:

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They don't look too bad to me.  Very few mounds in sight.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 05:17:25 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Totteridge
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2003, 04:59:16 PM »
Scott;

I didn't post the pics because I didn't see them on the site.  

I agree, the pictures look much better than the hole renderings, even with a lot of earth still evidently moved.  

Based on the pictures, I'm sure I'd play it if I was in the area.  Honestly.

Perhaps those sketches were taken directly from Rees's CAD program?  ;) ;D  Sorry, couldn't resist.  

Paul Richards

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2003, 10:13:11 PM »
Totteridge has some of the best greens in Western Pennsylvania.  They putt very true and the golf course, with the exception of the one par 5, is a very strong golf course.
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

George Pazin

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Re:Totteridge
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2003, 12:05:04 AM »
The openness looks encouraging. Nothing more frustrating to yours truly than a new course with a tree problem.

Paul -

You've commented on quite a few Ohio & Pennsy courses lately - perhaps some reporting is in order. :)

Hope you've enjoyed your travels.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2003, 12:06:29 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04