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Sean_A

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Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« on: February 18, 2015, 05:40:41 AM »
Perhaps you could provide reference to Bill Coore stating he seeks out flat land to build golf holes, or is this just your assumption?

No assumption, he has done it at every course of his that I have played, and a few others as well.  He chose flat land at Lost Farm, Bandon Trails, Friars Head, Hidden Creek, and Streamsong.

I found this the above exchange quite interesting...because I am a big fan of using flat land to provide contrast and variety to more rumbling holes.

Do folks think archies go out of their way to find flatish land on sites that will yield many hillyish holes?  if so, do folks have quotes, examples etc to help illustrate the point?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Josh Stevens

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2015, 06:05:42 AM »
I suppose before that question is answered - what is Bill Coore's hilliest course?  Has he done anything with the hills of Augusta?

Hilly is tricky I think

David_Elvins

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2015, 06:08:43 AM »
I suppose before that question is answered - what is Bill Coore's hilliest course?  Has he done anything with the hills of Augusta?

Hilly is tricky I think

Kapalua :)
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David_Elvins

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 06:36:33 AM »
Sean,

Hopefully I will add some more thoughts later but in the meantime it would be interesting to think of how many of the world's best courses have no 'flat' ground.  Defitnely not most of them, I suspect.  I think flat ground adds great variety and there are great features with a smaller scale that can be built on near flat ground that can't be built on sloping ground or big dunes.  

The 3rd green at Royal Melbourne, for example, is on relatively flat ground and beautifully compliments the other holes on the course with a distinct feature in front of the green that would be out place on more undulating ground.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2015, 06:52:53 AM »
What we all seek is variety.  If you've got hilly land to start with, you are going to look to the flatter parts of it to find some variety.  If you've got flattish land, you're going to push holes into the corners with the most features.

Joe Hancock

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2015, 08:16:04 AM »
How did Coore do at NLE Sugarloaf Mountain?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2015, 08:46:58 AM »
I guess it depends on what you call hilly.  at some point, most of your fairways need to be laid out on slopes of under 10%, or the ball will roll uncontrollably (small areas, strategically left, are okay, of course).  In the foothills or mountains that often translated to putting it in the valley, or on the ridge with some flattening for width.  Side hills of over 10% require some grading, and if that slope exceeds maybe 20-25% it gets tough to catch up to grade and fit the fairway in.

I would say Sand Hills is pretty hilly, but they did find the valleys, for the most part on the front nine anyway, to route the holes. 2 is a ridge runner and the back nine doesn't seem as valley-ish to me, from memory.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2015, 08:52:08 AM »


Gentle movement or elevation with plateaus would seem best to me . The inherent difficulty onf getting the drainage right  has got to be a major concern for an architect. Establishing  and maintaining course conditions  with the right maintenance meld  is also a factor due to the destructive nature of rolling water on a very hilly course .

Then there's the walking issue , many here love to walk , and some places just are too tough unless you are extremely fit .  For that reason , k would think most would prefer gentle rolling land .


Peter Pallotta

Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2015, 09:06:53 AM »
You know how when you look at a desert course you can clearly see these flowing ribbons/swaths of green weaving through the vast 'other' of light brown sand and scrub and rocky outcroppings?  I've always imagined that someone like Bill C is able to 'see' a similar image before a course is built, and even before it's routed/designed -- on any and every site, and when there is nothing at all there but un-differentiated land. Perhaps to his eyes, it is the "flat land" that 'scans' best and most immediately (given the task at hand), but like with me at a finished desert course, that seeing is in relationship to the vast 'other'.

I also imagine that some architects naturally/intuitively/instinctively 'see' higher spots and "cut away at them" while other architects, also instinctively, tend to see flatter spots and "build on top of them".  The 'greens at grade' guys are maybe the former, the 'raised greens' guys are maybe the latter.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 09:22:47 AM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2015, 09:51:51 AM »
I also imagine that some architects naturally/intuitively/instinctively 'see' higher spots and "cut away at them" while other architects, also instinctively, tend to see flatter spots and "build on top of them".  The 'greens at grade' guys are maybe the former, the 'raised greens' guys are maybe the latter.


Yes, and no.  I prefer to whittle away at things, whereas Bill Coore tends to solve his problems with fill. 

As a byproduct of those preferences, I tend to find small high spots to build my greens, so I can leave them at grade and not worry about drainage coming across them.  [examples:  13th at High Pointe, 3rd at Pacific Dunes]

Bill will find a location in a low spot or bowl, dig bunkers around it, and use that fill to build up the green.  [examples:  15th at Bandon Trails, 8th at Sand Hills]

Either way can work just fine.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2015, 10:25:34 AM »
Thanks, Tom. Just goes to show me how far off my intuitive speculations can be. And it again highlights how poor I am with three-dimensional visualizing, both post-facto and process wise. (To this day I've not been able to get even one line of one side of a rubic's cube the same colour, let alone an entire side or the entire cube.)  I would be a terrible golf course architect. I wonder how many working architects, past and present, may have been either a) naturally very good with three dimensional 'seeing' or b) not very good at it at all, but good at 'compensating' for that deficiency. 

Peter

Mike Hendren

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2015, 10:31:10 AM »
I would think in today's world they would seek engagement.

The obvious stated, I do think it is unfortunate that this site seems to have moved on from Talking Stick.  Both courses should be played by anyone interested in golf course architecture.  They might or might not be great architecture, but both courses are fascinating.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2015, 10:35:57 AM »
Peter,

I think most architects are pretty good at three dimensional “seeing” because once you can’t visualise the final product, you’ve lost control of the creative element. That said, some must excel and some less so, the latter being the ones that rely even more on good shaping skill to work alongside them.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2015, 10:42:23 AM »
Thanks, Ally. That's interesting. I wonder if those who excel less so realize this, or more to the point, realize it early enough in their careers to actually have careers. On the other hand, I suppose a certain kind of architect (past and present) wouldn't have to know or not know about his relative level of 3D seeing, but instead simply and un-selfconsciously choose to put his design ideas 'on paper' in 2D and then leave the crew to build it. And now I find myself wondering if, this possibly being the case, a trained eye could tell which architects past and present relied primarily on 2D seeing and which on 3D.  From what I've read on here, for example, Pete Dye seems definitely to have been a 3D 'seer'.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:51:00 AM by PPallotta »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2015, 10:50:28 AM »
Peter - Even the architects who put their ideas on paper have to fully visualise them in three dimensions. In fact I'd argue that they have to visualise them even more than the architect who builds purely in the field.

That is why designing in the field is a good approach. Because shapes and ideas are revealed to you as you start to build.

If you draw a plan and rely on a contractor to build it, you'd better have a pretty good idea of what that plan looks like as a finished product unless you want to have the possibility of significant rework.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2015, 10:52:50 AM »
Thanks, Ally.

I know I'm out of my element here, and every post from the professionals confirms this!!

Peter

Thomas Dai

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2015, 11:24:36 AM »
Yes, and no.  I prefer to whittle away at things, whereas Bill Coore tends to solve his problems with fill. 
As a byproduct of those preferences, I tend to find small high spots to build my greens, so I can leave them at grade and not worry about drainage coming across them.  [examples:  13th at High Pointe, 3rd at Pacific Dunes]
Bill will find a location in a low spot or bowl, dig bunkers around it, and use that fill to build up the green.  [examples:  15th at Bandon Trails, 8th at Sand Hills]
Either way can work just fine.

Tom,
Thanks for this. A very nice insight.
atb

Bill Brightly

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2015, 08:06:23 PM »
I think it is obvious that Bill Coore is very confident in his ability to build very good, interesting golf holes on flat land, especially when he knows he has dramatic spots elsehwere on the course. Friars Head is a perfect example. I can certainly enjoy a few flat holes with strategically placed fairway bunkers and cool green contours when I know I'm getting some far more dramatic elevation changes on other parts of the course. I think that makes for excellent contrast.


Tim_Weiman

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 08:23:13 PM »
I think it is obvious that Bill Coore is very confident in his ability to build very good, interesting golf holes on flat land, especially when he knows he has dramatic spots elsehwere on the course. Friars Head is a perfect example. I can certainly enjoy a few flat holes with strategically placed fairway bunkers and cool green contours when I know I'm getting some far more dramatic elevation changes on other parts of the course. I think that makes for excellent contrast.



Yes. I wouldn't call Friar's Head flat land. It has a desirable variety - what TD referred to.
Tim Weiman

Sean_A

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2015, 08:26:30 PM »
Thanks all, but I guess I was asking if archies choose flatter land over available good hilly land when they know many holes will already cover the good hilly land.  For instance, at Friars Head, was there land available which could have been used instead of the flatter land?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2015, 09:06:14 PM »
Is it Hard to think in 3D?  Easier in plan or field?

The short answer is yes, which is why we architects get paid the big bucks!

While you would think most architects are pretty good at three dimensional “seeing” because they have to visualize the final product, but in my experience, some excel more and some less so.  

Many things affect your ability to see in 3D. Some believe that those who draw plans are automatically less able to see in 3D. However, there are also some field constraints that make the final results look worse than they might in an ideal world.  I think the answer is to just keep working at it, first in plan, then in the field, to get the best visual results.

I wonder if certain architects really understands 3D design. I wonder this, because I have seen examples of the same less than stellar greens and bunkers on multiple courses by the same architect, even the big ones. Some have postulated that early Pete Dye courses, with their large flat bunkers were as much a result of Pete trying to learn to think in 3D as any particular design choice.

While I have always my design ideas 'on paper' in 2D grading plans, and more recently in 3D on CAD, I never just leave a crew to build it. I go out and when I see something I either really like or dislike, take the surveyors level to it to assess what is good/bad about it. (and frankly, am always amazed when someone brings up the false stereotype that drawing plans means the architect never goes in the field......most do both, perhaps to varying degrees)

My mentors had some good ideas on how to improve grading plans for better 3D.  Then and now, a design has several layers of tracing paper. We put the green and bunkers shapes on one layer, and the grading contours on the top layer.  Once they basically fit, they told us to remove the green shape underneath, and redraw the contours without regards to the golf features.  We did that a few times, until the contour lines really flowed, and the adjusted the shapes, if required.  More often than not, contours that flowed on paper flowed well in the field.

I still think this has merit, when I see a modern course with mounds lining the fairways, but the fairways being flat, and the contours and ridges never crossing over the fairway in naturalistic ways.  Some blame that on Tour Pros who think a tee shot in the fairway ought to be flat.  My take is that the design didn’t pull out that extra layer of tracing paper and make the contour lines a bit sexier!  

And in this case, architects who work more in the field may be less prone to “hold that line” with contours crossing fairway edges.  But, there are other limitations. If walking to mark out a fairway or bunker edge, the tendency is to take the flat route, avoiding a climb that might give something some necessary vertical elevation.  Even if riding in a cart, the cart generally slides a bit on the side slopes and you may not exaggerate the vertical as much as would be required for maximum aesthetics.  Of course, some say if a cart won’t ascent a hill, a mower won’t either, and it’s sort of cross check for maintenance practicality.

My mentors also suggested that one way to assess what it looked like to the golfer is to put your head on the drafting table to get sort of that worms eye view.  (Of course, they never failed to ask if I was asleep if I stayed down there too long…..)  What that really did was give a sense if features were lined up behind each other, and thus less likely to be visible, but you still had to use your imagination to “see the mounds, etc.”

And I always draw cross sections on key points to make sure things aren’t hidden behind.  If eye level from the tee is 100, and a bunker top is at 104, if the next bunkers are at 102, the golfer simply won’t see them.

I still also measure grades on things I like.  If a bunker looks good, I measure the ups and downs to find out just how much vertical change there was (and when digital levels became available, measure green and bunker slopes).  However, we can still get tangled up in “plan bias” meaning what we think a plan representing what we built should look.

A case in point was a green I built for Killian and Nugent.  I had noticed, playing many of the classic courses around Chicago, that architects like Colt and Allison had basically round greens with mounds edging into them on many sides, which created a very rolling edge and a good look.  The design trend at that time was multi-lobe greens with the surrounding mounds on the inside corners, which took the rolls out of the putting surface.

So, he didn’t like my plan, but let me build it.  He liked it in the field, and sent me out to survey the green for an “as built” contour plan.  He said it couldn’t be right, because his plans usually had the contours following the green edge, not cross it, and mounds on inside curves.  We rebuilt it to his new plan, but he didn’t like it.  We built again to the old way, surveyed again, and he didn’t like the way the plan looked.  The green stayed after a few rounds of this, and I am not sure he was ever convinced.

When we first got into 3D visualizations, one associate declared that our software wasn’t that good, because all his mounds looked like pimples, with steep slopes.  Truth is, he usually drew them that way and good shapers probably bailed us out many times.  I redrew his grading plan, making sure the skyline of the mound had gentle slopes, input it back in the computer, and it looked much better.  Sad to say, he didn’t really change his drawing ways, as some people just resist change, even when the evidence stares them in the face.

Lesson learned, if it looks good in the field, that is the right answer in most cases.  But, there are many benefits in trying to get it close on plan, and using cross sections to test vision, such as faster construction, better quantities, and keeping certain key distances and dimensions correct, because those are hard to eyeball in the field.  

We just have to learn what our style looks like on paper.  Some stuff is pretty subtle, but I have found things like:

Green edges need to roll at over 5% to even be noticeable. Over 11%, they get more prone to damage.  Mounds should have their long dimension about 90 deg. to golfers view.  The top skyline should be at least 20% max, but 10-15% is more graceful.

I could go on, but it would bore you.  My point is that some people think they are artistic, but the professional architect at some point needs to get down to some real world numbers and situations via experience to get the artistry to work right.  And, as my Dad used to say, some guys have 30 years experience, others have one year of experience 30 times over......
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 09:11:54 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ken Moum

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2015, 11:38:53 PM »
How did Coore do at NLE Sugarloaf Mountain?

Joe

Well, I played it a couple of times before it went NLE and it had a transformative effect on my thinking about golf courses.

Mostly because it had something I'd only dreamed of before.... 200+ yards difference between the longest and shortest par fours, and similarly wide ranges on the threes and fives.

I absolutely was in heaven.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bill Brightly

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Re: Do Archies Seek Out Flatish Land?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2015, 05:48:07 PM »
I think it is obvious that Bill Coore is very confident in his ability to build very good, interesting golf holes on flat land, especially when he knows he has dramatic spots elsehwere on the course. Friars Head is a perfect example. I can certainly enjoy a few flat holes with strategically placed fairway bunkers and cool green contours when I know I'm getting some far more dramatic elevation changes on other parts of the course. I think that makes for excellent contrast.



Yes. I wouldn't call Friar's Head flat land. It has a desirable variety - what TD referred to.

No, of course there is lots of wonderful elevation change at Friars Head. Like at Lost Farm, there are a few holes but on flattish land. But I think in both cases C & C does a nice job building interesting holes on this land, and that leaves "more room" for the most dramatic land forms to shine in contrast.

Take a course like the Island outside of Dublin. That course seems to "take advantage" of every dramatic dune formation available. But if you spray the ball like my two long hitting sons, you spend SO much time looking for balls and walking on angled land that you are beat up after 18 holes.