Who designs the best greens of the modern architects?

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I didn't know the #2 at PV was softened but it doesn't surprise me that is was changed.  As green speeds have increased, some of the classic era greens have become almost unputtable. 

If you don't think Pete's greens are outstanding even on his best courses then we just simply don't agree.  No problem.  I would be curious, however, why you feel that way?  Are they too flat or too boring for your taste?

As you know, conditions change and so do green speeds so I only put so much credence in those attributes.  I have for example played Oakmont when the greens were rolling at 9 or 10 after aeration and also when they were (believe it or not) above 15 and they are still great greens under both conditions/speeds. 

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with Mark again.  I love the greens at The Old Course and Pine Valley.  Some of them are difficult, and that's ok.  It's just when there is "too much going on" on the greens--and they are all 18 nearly that way, that I label what is being done as silly.  Save that sort of thing for practice greens--or miniature golf.

Jim:

It's fine for you to have your own opinion on this, just please don't try to make it into a rule.  I really don't care if you hate my greens, as long as there are other people who enjoy them.

The difference between "severe" and "silly" is up to the individual, but I notice that you and Mark tend to apply the latter term on modern courses and not on classic ones.  Surely there are some classic courses with greens you find silly.  Why don't you name a few?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I should probably re-read Chris Clousers book before asking this, but Maxwell was the biggest mid century proponent of wild greens, but did he ever write down the whys and wherefores of his design philosophy?

I ask because there are more classic courses than just the Golden Age.  Of the Golden Age archies, I think Mac liked the occasional freak green, but most others were probably that eras version of gently rolling greens, which are now tough in modern green speeds.

After the Depression, RTJ has written some about his big, subdivided into sections and rolling greens.  Not sure I recall Maxwell's thoughts.  For that matter, RTJ was a lot more into green contours than what I can see from Dick Wilson.  I have seen most of what Wilson wrote, but don't recall his comments on greens.  I categorized those as gently rolling as well.

Would be interesting to expand the topics beyond the usual suspects of most famous courses more down to the real world below the top 25 of all time.......

[Josh Tarble]

Mike Nuzzo,
I'm with you, I've never found Dye's greens to be exceptional.  Most I've seen are sufficient to good.  I will say most I've seen are solid in a very subtle way but nothing I've seen that says "wow"

In fact I think Crooked Stick's greens are a modern "what not to do"  I wish I could have seen the original versions before they were rebuilt.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Have to say though... Those pics of Long Cove that Tony threw up do seem to indicate a really cool set of greens.

Ally

[Josh Tarble]

True....and I would like to see what the Golf Club's greens are like.  Seems like the ones he has not "renovated" seem to be the best.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Have to say though... Those pics of Long Cove that Tony threw up do seem to indicate a really cool set of greens.

Ally

I would say that Colleton Dye is much more like LC than Harbour Town. I would say that Honors, Kiawah, Old Marsh, PGA, Dye Preserve, PGA and strong notch below LC. Colleton Dye has movement like LC, on a slightly smaller scale. How Colleton Dye isn't spoken about more. #2 best course in the HHI area.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I used #5 at Somerset Hills as one example.  The same would go for #13 there.  Both are very quirky greens and while I enjoy them both, a steady diet of them would be "silly" or in my opinion over the top.  However, as a collection, the greens at Somerset are fantastic as Tillinghast found the right balance.  

I also mentioned #2 at Pine Valley.  18 greens like that would be silly (or at least too much for me to handle).  Fortunately that is not the case.  I mentioned North Berwick as well.  If all (or even half) the greens were like #16 there, I think even you would feel it was over the top.  

Nicklaus used to build greens that were silly on many of his early courses.  If you couldn't play or putt like Jack, forget it.  He then seemed to go too much the other way and shied away from too much slope and internal contour (he worried with modern green speeds increasing that his greens would be unputtable).  He eventually found a better balance.

I have played a number of your courses and frankly liked them all.  I need to play more to be a better judge but I will say that some of your greens as an example several at Apache Stronghold are too tough for me.  I am a decent player and a pretty good putter and when I get on a green and realize I have no chance it makes me wonder what the average golfer thinks?  

To me a severe green is one like #3 at Pine Valley.  It can make you look foolish but at the same time it will reward a great putt.  Silly is when you have no chance even if you are Ben Crenshaw.  And yes I of course realize that being in the correct spot on a green has much to do with putting but when the margin of error is soooo small that luck completely takes over it gets a little goofy.  Again it is fun to have to deal with a few of them a round but when it is one after another after another it gets old fast.  I remember playing one of the courses at Desert Mountain (I was scratch at the time) and I almost walked in as the greens were wway too tough for me!

Wild is not the only thing/feature we are talking about.  We are discussing interesting putting surfaces that are well integrated with their surrounds.  
Don't take this too personal, I like most of your greens . I need to see more to be a better judge.

Sent from my iPhone

[Jaeger Kovich]

However, though limited in courses played, I enjoyed Jim Engh's Awarii Dunes greens like this as they made me figure out not only where the flag was, but which way is the best approach to get the ball close, high with spin, punch into the hill, run it up, so many options:

Over 15% (at least 3 of the 18) of the greens at Awarii Dunes do not function properly. They were either to severe at points and get scalped by mowers, didn't surface drain, and more... This might be the last place I would ever have thought of to suggest for best greens by a modern architect!

[Josh Bills]

Jaeger,

I like the design of the greens which allowed for many options and were not boring flat greens.  As for conditioning, on the day I played they were rough.  However, I could see many ways to play the greens and approaches is why I included it as well designed greens.  If you are telling me that the rough conditioning was due to poor design versus course care, then I would have to reevaluate.  However, the rest of the course was in fairly rough shape, so I assumed the poor conditioning on the greens was due to overall maintenance practices and not design.  If in fact the poor conditioning was due to design, then your assertion about not draining, scalping would make me reconsider. Curious as to which three greens you feel do not function properly.  Thanks for posting. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I understand that Tom, but my remarks are still valid,one can always say what if😉
I appreciate that the greens were built with FUN being Ruperts primary focus and as such success but that doesn't make the fact that their severity of fun😳makes them too challenging for a medal round n'est pas?

Michael:

There are guys I wouldn't bother engaging on this subject, but I am happy to engage you.  I don't understand your perspective so I hope you can enlighten me.

Is the purpose of a medal competition to (a) beat the other competitors, or (b) shoot a number you're happy with?

The greens at Ballyneal are indeed severe.  However, when we say "severe" what we mean is that they PUNISH improper positioning, which is another way of saying they REWARD correct positioning "too much".  If you know the greens and the hole locations, there are always places to be and places NOT TO BE, and the more you avoid the latter the better you'll fare in the competition.

What part of that do I have wrong?

.

I don't think you have anything wrong Tom and I agree with your comments.
But when greens are as intricate as those at  Ballyneal it takes quite a lot of rounds to know where to be or not to be.
That just makes it very difficult for the visitor who does not have that luxury of playing numerous rounds.

Again I emphasize I love the course and greens as much fun as you can have on a golf course, I just need to play it more😄

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger,

I like the design of the greens which allowed for many options and were not boring flat greens.  As for conditioning, on the day I played they were rough.  However, I could see many ways to play the greens and approaches is why I included it as well designed greens.  If you are telling me that the rough conditioning was due to poor design versus course care, then I would have to reevaluate.  However, the rest of the course was in fairly rough shape, so I assumed the poor conditioning on the greens was due to overall maintenance practices and not design.  If in fact the poor conditioning was due to design, then your assertion about not draining, scalping would make me reconsider. Curious as to which three greens you feel do not function properly.  Thanks for posting. 

At least in terms of the greens, yes, that is what I am talking about... They don't function properly.

From memory, #2 was a par 3, which had a "bird bath" on the upper level of the 2 tiered green. The 9th, I believe, also had such a quick almost  "pointy" transition in the slope from 1 level to another that it was scalping. I'm pretty sure my friends and I counted at least 2 green drain caps inside the putting surfaces through our round as well.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Generally speaking I think the best modern greens are built by the guys who are willing to get on the tractor and at least give them the final float themselves.

I normally prefer greens that are built at grade, and often with more contour than tilt. These require seamless tie-ins and fine detail work.

[David Davis]

I really don't think you need to look further than one resort to determine this.

Two courses there, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails. I'd say these architects are proving it on more courses than other standouts IMO. Maybe because they are getting better opportunities, that can certainly help, but in these cases I'd say these better opportunities are being earned.

Of course we need to give a lot of credit to the shapers and while I don't know who they are using, my knowledge doesn't go that far, a brilliant shaper certainly helps an archie to materialize their designs for us to admire.