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John Percival

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2015, 09:13:09 AM »
Whether one liked the old fifth or new fifth better, few can argue that the old created a much better flow to #6. The new green site, while significantly more visually striking, does then require a long walk back to the 6th tees.

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2015, 12:20:57 PM »
Pat, Bob, how does the current 5th compare to the old one? I've only seen a few photos of the old 5th and I don't think I've ever seen it played. I've seen the land over which it played and I know it wasn't as scenic as the current hole, but from a golfing standpoint how did it compare?

Jason,

There has been quite a few threads on the subject over the years, the old fifth was one very difficult hole to play. It was played uphill to a small green, received little sun, was bordered by a heavily treed canyon on the left and with OB on the right. In forty years I saw few one putts in playing or spectating.

The current iteration is far more attractive but does not have the bite of the old.

Bob


Patrick_Mucci

Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2015, 03:21:47 PM »
John & Bob have provided good insight regarding the 5th, not much more to say.

I always found it to be a difficult hole

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2015, 11:13:11 AM »
Those who played the old 5th hole and know it best seem to prefer it to the new version, but had the land where the current #5 now sits been available at the time the course was built, wouldn't the 5th hole have been built where it is now?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2015, 06:28:02 PM »

Those who played the old 5th hole and know it best seem to prefer it to the new version, but had the land where the current #5 now sits been available at the time the course was built, wouldn't the 5th hole have been built where it is now?

Rick,

I don't believe so.

I think the tee might have been where it is today, but, I think the hole would have angled away from the ocean and up toward the 6th tee.


Gib_Papazian

Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2015, 01:12:07 PM »
Gentlemen,

My maiden voyage around the Pebble Beach was just after the 1972 Open (spoiled lad I was) and I promise the green complex at #7 has undergone some subtle alterations over the years. In fact, aside from the "new" 5th hole, there have been quite a few significant changes all over the golf course, just none that draw attention to themselves.

Putting aside the Chandler Egan-era dunescape, the 7th used to appear from the tee more of a rectangle - the rounded edges you see today pushed outwards to widen the landing area; years of sand thrown laterally from both sides of the green had eventually created a funnel effect, similar to the pre-Weiskopf 15th hole on Olympic Lake.

Few people noticed, but the back half of the putting surface has been widened quite a bit - with edges that nibble into space that used to be bunkers. And a few short years from now, they will have to do the same thing because golf courses change and devolve; every time sand gets splashed out, it contributes to the build-up.

I happen to be standing there when Tom Kite hooped that pitch in '92, but it was a much easier save than Watson's miracle in '82. Everybody seems to forget he had a wide open look at the pin and was chipping directly against a strong gale. An easy shot? No, but hardly the act of divine intervention by providence historians try to make it. There is quite a gauntlet between the 8th tee and the home hole and I'm going to say the worst score Kite would have made at #7 was a bogey - but par was not beyond one of the best short game artists on tour.

The fifth hole is a good deal more controversial. I'm not in the camp that pines for the old 5th because it was a real duck. First off, the overgrowth of those eucalyptus and pine trees intruded far enough to make it one of two true dogleg (left) par-3's on a notable golf course - the other at Cruden Bay. No problem for a kid who played the sling-hook with his father's hand-me-down Karsten 1 irons, but hardly appropriate for a shrine hanging on the western wall of America.

Uncle Bob is correct about the dearth of sunlight and air circulation between the arroyo on the left and the scrub oaks on the right. Add in an ugly stone wall guarding the cart path and driveway to a funky rancher home and the whole thing felt like a disorganized mess. The green was a tilted pancake with at least 6-8 degrees of slope - and growing grass on the putting surface must have been an adventure because half the time the Super resorted to green spray to cover bare dirt. Behind the green was a patch of sopping wet and tangled kikuyu grass, making a chip shot impossible. Good riddance to bad trash - there was nothing endearing about it and Nicklaus did an A+ job with the replacement.

That stated, I am with Patrick in speculating if the land were available at the time of construction, the 5th would probably have climbed the hill towards the 6th tee; certainly putting the arroyo to better use that what was there before. I'm not crazy about the walk-back to the next tee, but anything is better than a eucalyptus and oak leaf covered throwaway.

At some point, the 17th is also going to have to be addressed. I was lucky enough to cover several Opens for the press and still remember watching the Most Interesting Man in the World have to pull out his orange dot, 60 degree sand wedge (I was right there) and pitch the ball from the right side of the putting surface towards the pin.

Over the course of my life, the bottle-neck throat between the two sections has gotten more severe. I cannot believe it was built with that intention and somebody needs to admit the king has no clothes and stop the madness. If they want to make it a wickedly difficult challenge to get the ball close from one side to the other, fine - but a putting surface with pin positions completely inaccessible from a large portion of the green is contrary to common sense.

While my grouse is in full plumage, it is also time to knock down the lip of the greensite bunker on #15 and restore some putting surface area. In firm conditions, only an idiot would try for the pin on the upper tier; my vote would be to provide just enough room to tempt good players to try and stuff it close. As it is, the only play when the pin is back left is to hit the approach deep on the right side (where the slope is much flatter) and lag one close. It is one thing to preserve and honor the original contours and quite another to pretend the result of thoughtless maintenance for decades is the author's original intent.

        

  

    

        
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:16:40 PM by Gib Papazian »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2015, 04:03:05 PM »
Gib,

As always, well stated.

As to # 15, all too often the play of the hole is analyzed within the confines of the AT&T when the best golfers in the world are hitting wedges into that green.

For mere mortals, it's a much longer shot, off of an uncomfortable lie, to a miniscule target that doesn't accomodate misses very well.

If I was hitting an L-Wedge into that green on my third shot, I'd have little objection to it's present configuration, but, that's not the case.

The old 5th suffered from its flanking neighbors, the wall, ravine and trees, but from a routing perspective, it was perfect.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2015, 04:19:25 PM »
Okay, let me argue for the defense of 17. I wouldn't design a green like 17 now -- nor would I put a bunker in the middle of a green, like #6 at Riviera -- but why not preserve historic quirk like that? Is it really an affront to the game of golf that a player should have to occasionally nip a lob wedge off the tightest of possible lies to get close to a pin?

My bitch would be if the course administration refuses to permit wedge play on a green that occasionally requires that shot. If they won't let you hit the necessary shot, then blow up the green.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2015, 04:28:33 PM »
Okay, let me argue for the defense of 17. I wouldn't design a green like 17 now -- nor would I put a bunker in the middle of a green, like #6 at Riviera -- but why not preserve historic quirk like that? Is it really an affront to the game of golf that a player should have to occasionally nip a lob wedge off the tightest of possible lies to get close to a pin?

My bitch would be if the course administration refuses to permit wedge play on a green that occasionally requires that shot. If they won't let you hit the necessary shot, then blow up the green.

Rick,

C'mon man, you have to prohibit wedge play on the putting surface on a green that gets hundreds of duffers a day, every day.

I happen to like the green as well.

What many forget is that new back tees make the target green difficult to hit.
Wind too.

I'd like to see historic aerials that measure the hour glass waist, now, and every 20 years back.


David_Tepper

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2015, 05:58:11 PM »
Rick & Pat -

Some time ago there were older photos shown (on G. Shackelford's website, I think) of the 17th green at Pebble. Clearly the green was larger than it is today and the "waist" between the two portions of the green was not nearly as narrow as it is today. It is likely that sand thrown from the bunkers has built up slopes that resulted in the green shrinking over time.

#17 is just one of several greens at Pebble in need of a restoration/renovation.

DT   

Gib_Papazian

Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2015, 06:30:19 PM »
Rick,

I am not sure the slow strangulation of the 17th green over the years can be reasonably characterized as "historic." It has changed a good bit over the 42 years I've been playing it, so there is no reason to cling to a feature resulting from poor upkeep in the name of quirk. Let's keep Sea Hedrig at Prestwick - which is shrieking quirk - and just admit too many chops have shoveled sand onto the green at #17 at Pebble and go back far enough in history to set things right.

My last trip to North Berwick, the head professional opined the Redan Bunker "has always been that way since I arrived." Citing his longevity in the area since the 1950's, I tried to gently remind him the hole goes back 150 years and perhaps that overgrown clump of crabgrass intruding on what used to be bunker might best be removed for historical accuracy. He rolled his eyes at me - typical surly Scot - so I sent him and the new Club Secretary a photo George Bahto uncovered from the late 1800's. I received a thank you note from the Secretary and stony silence from the curmudgeon in the shop.

There are actually quite a few spots at Pebble Beach that could use some courageous restoration - but that takes juevos and the willingness to inconvenience the rubes getting sodomized $500 each, to nurse their duck-slice around the golf course and donate a half-dozen balls to Davy Jones locker between the 4th tee and 10th green.

Nobody has mentioned #12, though not as offensive as the old #12 at Garden City, does not belong on the golf course. You get this stream of blue-flame runway models from #2-10, followed by Oprah Winfrey in a corset (way too wide with a green that slopes hard left) and then Ellen DeGeneres in lace burlap. Even if you're into strap-ons, neither one of those holes are getting in the A-list limo to the afterparty.

Even Cypress Point has some marginal spots: 10,14,17,18 - but at no point do you stand on the tee wanting to get past it as quickly as possible. Go ahead and argue #17 at Cypress is a great hole and I'll give you five reasons it needs a gassed-up chainsaw - amongst other things.

We started on #7, so maybe I've wandered far afield here, but am I the only person who has noticed the putting surface on #8 is actually a perfect reverse-Redan?  



      

 
    
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:00:03 PM by Gib Papazian »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2015, 07:23:06 PM »
Okay, let me argue for the defense of 17. I wouldn't design a green like 17 now -- nor would I put a bunker in the middle of a green, like #6 at Riviera -- but why not preserve historic quirk like that? Is it really an affront to the game of golf that a player should have to occasionally nip a lob wedge off the tightest of possible lies to get close to a pin?

My bitch would be if the course administration refuses to permit wedge play on a green that occasionally requires that shot. If they won't let you hit the necessary shot, then blow up the green.

Rick,

C'mon man, you have to prohibit wedge play on the putting surface on a green that gets hundreds of duffers a day, every day.

I happen to like the green as well.

What many forget is that new back tees make the target green difficult to hit.
Wind too.

I'd like to see historic aerials that measure the hour glass waist, now, and every 20 years back.



Rick,

Many years ago at Riviera, Bob Wilkie actor, the biggest of the badmen in 'High Noon' needed a wedge on the 6th hole. Someone in the group suggested that he should not do that. He turned around and said if some dumb ass designed the green then he should can come out and
repair it.

He was probably one of the best Hollywood players.

Bob
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 07:26:46 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Adam Clayman

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2015, 07:27:51 PM »
I'd argue that the hourglass shape size hasn't changed, but the grassing scheme has. Remove that Westchester County presentation, and there'd be creative options to recovery from the wrong side.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2015, 08:03:50 PM »
Regarding the 17th, the write up done for the 1929 Amateur suggests that it was the intention to allow players to be able to putt from one side of the green to the other.  Have to say that from the photos the neck does look a lot more narrow today then it did back then.



Here's a photo from the Sept. 1929 edition of Golf Illustrated:



Today:

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:10:42 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam Clayman

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2015, 08:29:55 PM »
Those rear bunkers have been Arnie-fied. When I was there, they were random nasty pots. Of course, Mark Michaud was responsible for the courses maintenance, then.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Percival

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2015, 09:02:45 PM »
You might notice than Sven's pics show the 1929 17th green as being 'horizontal', while today's is more 'vertical'. Also notice in the '29 drawing that the 18th tee is not there. Remember, the closer was once a 400 yd par 4 and the tee and green were both moved back to create today's closer. So, did the change to 17 green come about to accommodate the new 18th tee?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2015, 09:34:01 PM »
You might notice than Sven's pics show the 1929 17th green as being 'horizontal', while today's is more 'vertical'. Also notice in the '29 drawing that the 18th tee is not there. Remember, the closer was once a 400 yd par 4 and the tee and green were both moved back to create today's closer. So, did the change to 17 green come about to accommodate the new 18th tee?

The 18th was a par 5 in 1929.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Percival

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2015, 09:47:38 PM »
Yes.
But, the existing 'middle' tee does not seem to be in the '29 pic or drawing.
Could it have been added after '29 and thus the green modification?

For the record, the old design looks wonderful...half of the green accessible and half nasty.
And the more rugged, almost natural sand features (also shown on the old pic of #7) look spectacular.

Jim Nugent

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Re: The seventh at Pebble Beach
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2015, 01:09:47 AM »
You might notice than Sven's pics show the 1929 17th green as being 'horizontal', while today's is more 'vertical'.

Did they actually change the green or are the photos taken from different angles? 

Other holes at Pebble also used to have that more rugged look.  I remember photos from the 1960s of the 9th or 10th tee.  Much less groomed look, and closer to the beach IIRC. 

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