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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 02:49:32 PM »
Craft beer has already jumped the shark. It was far easier to find great beer 10 years ago, before the boom in microbreweries allowed every idiot who ever cooked up five gallons with malt extract to open a business selling overhopped hipster-approved foam.

Unfortunately, the craft beer industry has spawned the same problems that the macro beer industry has - specifically a lack of variety as the market has begun to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Just as the domestic macro beer market has traditionally been flooded with flavorless fizzy "golden suds" pisswater that, as Budweiser so eloquently stated, "is brewed for drinking" rather than tasting, so the craft beer market has been flooded with poorly-made disgusting IPAs completely void of nuance that can be held like a bottled badge of honor by guys who want the cred that goes with buying local and drinking something "crafted" but who don't have the refined taste to appreciate any flavor other than "It's so hoppy!"

I suspect the golf architecture industry would look the same if new construction had continued at a rapid pace in the 20 years after Sand Hills opened. Coore & Crenshaw and Tom Doak are a lot like Sierra Nevada and Brooklyn Brewing: producers of fantastic and influential products with an appeal that not only drives their own marketability, but that also inspires legions of less talented idiots to flood the industry with inferior knockoff products. Thankfully golf doesn't have the money that craft beer has and thus minimalist, traditionally-inspired "craft" architecture hadn't been destroyed by shitty and talentless startup architecture firms. I'm happy to drink hard liquor while I wait for the craft beer bubble to pop and the industry to normalize, but it would be much harder to play Art Hills courses in protest of a hypothetical similar golf explosion.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 02:59:18 PM »
Can u tell us which brewery?  Is it Right Brain, Founders, Bells, or Shorts? 

Probably none of them.  Very few breweries also grow their own hops for brewing (though quite a few do for decoration).  A few that have sizable properties may grow their own hops some of their beers (Stone and Sierra Nevada being two), but most hops are sourced from hop growers, so I doubt it's any of those breweries, though they may end up buying some hops from the owners if this operation. 


Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 03:16:36 PM »
Anyone have some pictures of HP when it was a golf course?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2015, 03:21:38 PM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51256.0.html

Pictures can be found here, including a couple scanned from Tom Doak.

Chris

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2015, 03:32:03 PM »
Craft beer has already jumped the shark. It was far easier to find great beer 10 years ago, before the boom in microbreweries allowed every idiot who ever cooked up five gallons with malt extract to open a business selling overhopped hipster-approved foam.

Unfortunately, the craft beer industry has spawned the same problems that the macro beer industry has - specifically a lack of variety as the market has begun to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Just as the domestic macro beer market has traditionally been flooded with flavorless fizzy "golden suds" pisswater that, as Budweiser so eloquently stated, "is brewed for drinking" rather than tasting, so the craft beer market has been flooded with poorly-made disgusting IPAs completely void of nuance that can be held like a bottled badge of honor by guys who want the cred that goes with buying local and drinking something "crafted" but who don't have the refined taste to appreciate any flavor other than "It's so hoppy!"

Yikes, if there's any industry that I can think of that absolutely doesn't limit itself to producing for the lowest common denominator, it's the craft beer industry.  That's part of the beauty of small batch.  You can't very well sink millions into a wildly experimental golf course if you're not sure people will want to play it, but small breweries can and do experiment all the time.  I can think of two extremely high quality breweries within three miles of my apartment that don't even brew IPAs.  Off Color's flagship (Troublesome) is arguably the best Gose produced in the Midwest.  Metropolitan focuses solely on lagers and bocks, and I doubt you'll come across a finer Kolsch brewed in this country than their Krankshaft.  Goose Island revolutionized barrel aging and practically created an entirely new class of beer in the process.  New Glarus is a Wisconsin institution, and they don't brew an IPA (though they did do a IIPA for their thumbprint series), Instead, they are pushing boundaries with their sours and fruit beers, which are off the charts good.  If you walk into a big box liquor store (in Chicago, it's Binnys, on the West Coast, it's Bev-Mo, etc.) and all you can find is poor quality IPAs, you're doing it wrong.  Either that, or you're letting other people's experience with Hipsterism ruin what's actually a pretty good thing.  

If people are making shitty, unbalanced beers that you don't like, there's a simple solution: Don't buy them.  Honestly, unless they're stealing shelf or tap space, who cares how many bad beers are out there?  There's still a hell of a lot more good beer available now than there's been since prohibition.  It's virtually impossible to walk into a bar these days, and I'm talking regular neighborhood dive bars, and not find a few things on tap that are worth your money if you want something with some flavor.  And if you want to drink Bud, more power to you.  Drink what you like.  But that was absolutely not the case 10 or 15 years ago when you were lucky if a place had Sierra Nevada in bottles.  

Lest I come off as a beer snob in all of this, I'll tell you that my beer philosophy is almost exactly the same as my golf philosophy.  I like to play well regarded, well thought out, fun golf courses, even if they cost a little more.  But what's important is spending time with friends and enjoying the day, so if you make a time at your local dog track muni, I'm going to show and play.  I also like well made beers with a fair amount of flavor, so when I'm stocking my fridge, that's what you'll find.  But I will gladly and without complaint drink whatever cheap mass produced beer you put in front me.  And Jason, whatever you do, don't let Pat talk you into drinking a Surly Furious when you're up there for the Mashie.  It's one of the best beers on the planet, but ya know, it's an IPA so you'll want to stay away.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:33:51 PM by Bill Seitz »

Charlie_Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2015, 04:08:09 PM »
Tom, if your next born is quirky and full of charm, I dare you to name it after a favorite of mine: Old Peculier.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2015, 04:08:40 PM »
Bill and Jason,
Actually both very good comments on the state of the micro-brew industry.  I have had several IPAs that seem to be hoppy just to be hoppy and I've also had more unusual and great beers in the last year than I even knew possible.  Most of the "crap" seems to be coming from small places looking to make a name for themselves unfortunately.  


And getting back to golf, I can't help but think High Point was just created a few years too early.  It seems like good architecture is being appreciated more and more.  It also couldn't have been hurt by Tom's success at other places.  Seems like it was too far gone to capitalize once Pacific Dunes, et. at happened.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2015, 04:12:23 PM »
Bill, you're mostly preaching to the choir. We just see what's happening in the "craft beer movement" differently. I actually like a lot of IPAs, and I'm going to Cincinnati's Beerfest tomorrow. I'm not afraid of being considered a beer snob - I undoubtedly am one. I've made trips to Wisconsin from Cincinnati twice in the last three years just to hang out at New Glarus' Oktoberfest. It's my favorite brewery in the world, and there are plenty of other brilliant breweries operating. But there's also no way around the fact that in the last five years there has been a huge explosion in the number of "craft breweries" operating in the US, and that the majority of those new breweries aren't producing anything worth two farts.

When I say it was easier to find great beer ten years ago, I'm just looking at the percentages. For every five breweries that open right now, four of them make mostly garbage. For every beer that's truly special and pushing boundaries or reimagining a lost style, there are 15 shitty IPAs cooked up. Brewers love IPAs because overhopping is the best way to cover up mistakes in their processes. Retail drinkers gravitate to IBUs over 60 the way that retail golfers gravitate to courses above 7000 yards, even though it's proven that almost no one can taste the difference once you get above that threshold.

To be fair, this whole movement isn't nearly as much of a fad in your neck of the woods. Wisconsin has had microbreweries everywhere for decades, and the ones that are still around make really good products and their footprint extends well into your backyard. The beer and the cheap Bucks tickets are the only things I really miss about living in Madison, and when I think back to Kingsley one of the first things I think about is how ridiculously good Bell's Amber tastes on fall evenings in Northern Michigan which also has a long-established microbrewery scene. Unfortunately, the market here in my once-proud brewing city hasn't separated the chaff yet, and it may never happen now that every tool with a Friday night bow tie around here throws his money exclusively at IBUs, with the occasional Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale for variety. Gag me. I like my boutique industries best when they only appeal to boutique tastes - I like empty golf courses, beers that don't have mass appeal, and Swedish rock and roll. Thankfully, I at least have a locally burgeoning small batch bourbon industry that I can't see the guys in the bow ties ruining any time soon.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2015, 04:14:46 PM »
High Pointe played a very important role in my golfing life and in my love of architecture.  I am very sad about this.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2015, 04:20:14 PM »
For what it may be worth, the latest (2/13/2015) on another early child, Charlotte Golf Links:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2015/02/13/5512996/hearing-set-for-cahrlotte-golf.html#.VN5pGCyWlv8

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2015, 05:04:07 PM »
I thought the guy was asking an above market price for the property.  What gives?

Jason,

I'm with you in the sense that IPA's as a type have jumped the shark.  It's kind of like when my buddies and I were digging this cool live guitar album that nobody had heard of and two years later 'Frampton Comes Alive' is elevator music.  At least I felt that way until I had the new Hopslam release the other day...I agree with Bill though that it's nice to be able to go into a random restaurant and be able to get something from Founders or Half Acre instead of having to settle for a Heineken. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2015, 05:32:05 PM »
High Pointe played a very important role in my golfing life and in my love of architecture.  I am very sad about this.

Let loose with some Grey Goose to tamp down the trauma. Beer is harmful to the chunky among us. In fact, now that the pork carnitas is halfway done, I'll pour one in your honor.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2015, 05:36:09 PM »
Don't let Bill fool you. He is a golf snob and a beer snob but all that really matters to him is that he be provided a chair in which to fall asleep after golfing and drinking.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2015, 05:38:23 PM »
Acch ...... a Low Pointe.

Cheers Col
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Chris Pearson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2015, 05:45:32 PM »
Perhaps I am dense, but does this mean the course is destined to be NLE? Or does the brewery just plan to use *some* of the land to grow hops?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2015, 06:01:36 PM »
Don't let Bill fool you. He is a golf snob and a beer snob but all that really matters to him is that he be provided a chair in which to fall asleep after golfing and drinking.

I'm thinking there may be a Seitz golf etc. bachelor event eay this summer...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2015, 06:03:23 PM »
Don't let Bill fool you. He is a golf snob and a beer snob but all that really matters to him is that he be provided a chair in which to fall asleep after golfing and drinking.

I'm thinking there may be a Seitz golf etc. bachelor event eay this summer...

I'm thinking it's more like a summer tour.  Also potentially a joint event with Mr. Faley, who's giving Seitz strokes last I looked...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2015, 06:13:39 PM »
Don't let Bill fool you. He is a golf snob and a beer snob but all that really matters to him is that he be provided a chair in which to fall asleep after golfing and drinking.

He's a smarter man than me.  I usually find chairs to fall off of.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2015, 06:32:47 PM »
What's the over-under on how many years down the road there will be a thread on this site debating the relative merits of recreating High Pointe (perhaps somewhere in FL).

Maybe John K's grandkids will be on here to interject that it's a terrible idea because the people of that era liked crappy craft beer more than the course.  "Why would you want to rebuild a course that couldn't even compete with Hoppy Ending Pale Ale?"

(And yes, that's a real beer name: http://www.buzzfeed.com/esquire/25-of-the-most-amazing-craft-beer-names-youll-ever-see#.okAp2x45P)
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2015, 06:43:34 PM »
Hope we don't see a thread one day titled "CommonGround Goes To Pot"...

High Pointe would be a better name for a Weed Ranch.

...although I like the name "Weed Ranch" better than "High Pointe".

"For the finest hops in Northern Michigan, try Weed Ranch hops."

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2015, 07:19:08 PM »
Don't let Bill fool you. He is a golf snob and a beer snob but all that really matters to him is that he be provided a chair in which to fall asleep after golfing and drinking.

He's a smarter man than me.  I usually find chairs to fall off of.

In all fairness to you, Sven, it was technically a stool.  Those are a lot easier to fall off of.  

As for bachelor events, step 1 is the Ocean Course in Kiawah next weekend, and I am all ears about a step 2 in Chicago! 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 07:21:12 PM by Bill Seitz »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2015, 09:44:45 PM »
Tom,

Sorry to hear about that. The golf world needs more courses like HP.
Tim Weiman

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2015, 10:38:29 PM »
Every time I drive by there I miss that course.  Even though it's NLE I keep it in my top 15.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2015, 10:52:48 PM »
Thankfully, after about 6 weeks since the directive from our forum CEO on all architecture all the time; humor has broken out in pent up wittiness.   Some great one-liners and puns to easy the sting of the notion a fine golf course is now just full of hops.

I am no connoisseur of craft beers, I like a few.  But isn't there also something of a revival movement of craft local distilleries?  I saw some in Tasmania and know of a couple in Wisky and Michigin.   ::)  

I can see in climate's like Cali where Almonds are already a big cash crop that needs a heavy amount of water-irrigation and the almond farms are sucking local aquifer's dry, where a few clunker courses in the boonies may be a target since they already have irrigation, and about 2-4 years to start harvesting the nuts, where yield increases every year.

What are the odds we see a legal pot farm on a converted nor cal golf course?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My First Born Turns to Alcohol
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2015, 04:06:17 PM »
On the topic of craft breweries, and in particular Stone, let me offer the below editorial from the local daily regarding their $31 Million facility on the East Coast. I'm all for and hope that more and more industries locate in my town. I'm not so much in favor of the 'deals' and 'incentives' that induce them to. Seems that much may well be left on the taxpayers than was advertised. A trend that I suspect is not unique to us. The other item relates to the recent departure of the Chief Administrative Officer.

I'm also no longer a fan of the over-hopped, over publicized, and over-produced IPA. If you're going to do beer, do it right. Make a good beer, and make it unique. Don't fall into trying to keep up with the crowd seeking market share.

Quote
"Those who didn’t know better might think the administration of Richmond Mayor Dwight Jones was having a contest with the Richmond Economic Development Authority for the title of Most Opaque Government Body in Virginia.

After much pressure, the city has released its vise-like grip on the confidentiality agreement the administration asked the City Council to sign regarding the departure of Byron Marshall, the former city administrator. The actual terms of that departure have not been released themselves, of course.

The confidentiality agreement is sweeping — so sweeping that those who signed it are not even supposed to acknowledge it exists. Five members of the council signed it anyway. Among the admirable exceptions was Reva Trammell, who says she doesn’t “think we need to keep stuff away from the taxpayers. We need more open government.”

Truer words were never spoken. Yet the Jones administration continues to hide behind a personnel-matter exemption in FOIA rules to avoid any discussion of what might have led to Marshall’s departure.

Nor has the administration offered any further details about its thinking with regard to a new baseball stadium. Remember that Jones floated his Shockoe Bottom proposal in the fall of 2013 — roughly a decade after city leaders first began discussing a new park. It bogged down in controversy and the administration withdrew it the following May, promising to reveal a new and improved plan shortly. Nine months later, it still hasn’t.

Meanwhile, the EDA has just voted to change the terms of the lease with Stone Brewing it approved a couple of months ago. It still hasn’t signed the construction contract for the brewery, even though site work on the project is now underway. And it is using the lack of a signed contract as an excuse not to reveal any of the terms. Evidently the public is not supposed to see what it is getting for its money until the deal is irrevocable.

The EDA’s Rich Johnson says this is “a matter of good business practice.” But as we pointed out before, the EDA is not a private business — it is a public body, using public money for ostensibly public purposes. What’s more, the rationale for keeping contract details close to the vest in business deals is to prevent competitors from making a better bid. That isn’t a concern here, unless you think Baltimore or Charlotte might suddenly seduce Stone into abandoning Richmond with a sweeter deal. Anything’s possible — but it would be hard for another city to top the $31 million in incentives Richmond has pledged without taking a financial bath.

Julious Smith, the chairman of the Richmond EDA, is clearly annoyed by what he perceives as hectoring by glory hounds in the media. As the chairman emeritus of the powerful Williams Mullen law firm, he is no doubt used to a greater degree of deference. But the EDA is not a private firm, and it has fiduciary and democratic responsibilities to the citizens. Part of such responsibility involves answering questions from the press. Think of it as a matter of good government practice. "





http://m.richmond.com/opinion/our-opinion/article_d7efbf18-bc0d-5fc8-ad8c-0c1a349761a9.html?