[Jim_Kennedy]

The article comparing holes at both:

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,

Here is another article on the Ocean Links.  This article is from the American Golfer-August 13, 1921

This article had a slightly different tilt on the origin of Raynors Prize Dog Leg.  (Compared to the two previous Ocean Links articles)

Bret



Here is the full article for anyone who wants to read it.  The article mentions that the 5th Hole at Ocean Links is similar to the 5th hole at Lido!

[Marty Bonnar]

Sven,
I have nothing cogent to add except to thank you for contributing this thread to the DG. It's wonderfully old school style with the newspaper clippings, photos, plans etc along with well reasoned capable discussion are so reminiscent of the best threads of the past.
Threads like this were the reason I for one was drawn here in the first place. More power to your pen(keyboard??), Sir and Onward!
Best,
F.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lido drawing*:




*-just noticed that this drawing has been languishing about on the the "Compilations" thread - reply #188 -Joe Bausch (of course   ) 

[Jim_Kennedy]

And this is the article that accompanied the drawing. Good descriptions of every hole.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I just made a rather interesting discovery. Boys and girls, I think the first hole at Ocean Links is based on another of the Country Life entries.

The first hole begins in the upper left corner and doglegs left. Instead of a large bunker on the inside of the dogleg that must be carried in the drawing there is a crossbunker. On both, the outside of the dogleg along the rough line has three  bunkers, sort of visible here, but prominent in another aerial I have.

Also on both, a bunker extends back from the green towards the tee on the outside of the dogleg side.

There are also trees on the far inside of the doglegs.

[Sven Nilsen]

Anthony:

Interesting comparison.  The American Golfer piece above noted the similarities of the 1st with the 5th at Garden City.  I haven't read anything that says the hole was specifically modeled after the GC one, so it is possible that it was just the thought of the article's author.

Sven

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The scorecard of Ocean Links also calls it the fifth at Garden City. I'd like to see a rendering of that hole from the mid nineteen teens.

Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

The 5th at GCGC

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Here is Innis Brown's description in the American Golfer Aug. 13, 1919.

"The first hole, three hundred and ten  yards in length, bears a close resemblance to the fifth at the Garden City Golf Club. A long drive accurately placed yp the right of the fairway leaves a par four for the hole quite easy, but a tee shot that lands to the left leaves a very difficult approach, and to reach the rough on the left from the tee, just about stifles any hopes of a par 4 for the hole."

Looking at the drawing of the Garden City fifth that Jim posted, I see no resemblance.

Anthony

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

What was the date on your article?

Sven

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sven,

I put it in two parts, but the drawing and the article were together in the paper - so BDE 11/26/1916

If you meant the GCGC holes, they're from 1913.

[DMoriarty]

In his 1938 article, "The Evangelist of Golf,"  H.J. Whigham provided interesting insight which may or may not help explain C.B. Macdonald's comments about certain aspects of the Lido project.  (As reprinted in George Bahto's book of the same name.)

 Twenty years ago Pine Valley was the chief rival of the two outstanding Macdonald creations, the National and the Lido. And nothing would annoy Charlie Macdonald more than mentioning these three in the same breath. He always maintained Pine Valley was too difficult and had too many trees.  He was probably right, for one of the cardinal points of his faith was that a good golfing hole should be equally interesting and playable for the duffer and the champion. He was indeed so jealous of the National's reputation that he even disliked listening to praise of his own Lido.  
   Here again he was right.  For the National has bee much more than just good golf course: it has been an inspiration of every great course in this country, though plenty of them will not show a trace of the Macdonald style. . . .
____________________________________________________________________________

Sven,  Note the hole distances on the map and in the article above are more in line with what we might expect of CBM.   I think this is because of the way he designed and described his courses.  He used a middle figure, not the tips figure. But still they (NGLA and Lido) were always longer than his mythical 6000 yards, except for his "short" tees.   One thing to keep in mind is that when he made the 6000 yard comment, we were only a handful of years past the advent and popularization of the Haskell, and it may be that it took him a while to come to grips with just how much the added distance impacted the architecture.   From the tips they both ended up being long courses for the time, especially the Lido.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's "Long" Jim Barnes taming the Channel hole at Lido in 1922. Not a very good drawing of the hole, but he made playing it look easy.  

http://bklyn.newspapers.com/image/60029998/

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here is Innis Brown's description in the American Golfer Aug. 13, 1919.

"The first hole, three hundred and ten  yards in length, bears a close resemblance to the fifth at the Garden City Golf Club. A long drive accurately placed yp the right of the fairway leaves a par four for the hole quite easy, but a tee shot that lands to the left leaves a very difficult approach, and to reach the rough on the left from the tee, just about stifles any hopes of a par 4 for the hole."

Looking at the drawing of the Garden City fifth that Jim posted, I see no resemblance.

Anthony

Anthony,
Here's Joe's complete thread, doesn't appear to be any 'matches'.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45772.0.html

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Garden City hosted the 1913 U.S. Amateur so unless there were dramatic changes before 1918-1919, it does not make sense that the first at Ocean Links is designed with regards to the the fifth at Garden City other than the hole favored a drive to one side of the fairway.

I've long had a feeling that C.B. Macdonald was not telling the truth when it came to hole designs. I think he was trying to give credit to others rather than take the accolades for hole designs.

I think Biarritz is perfect example. I think he took the tee shot of the Chasm Hole in France and combined it with the rotated–if memory serves–of the 16th at North Berwick to make  sensational par-3 but gave the credit to others.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.

Anthony

[Sven Nilsen]

Anthony:

You're wrong on the Biarritz theory.  Its been covered in detail, but you can start with the fact that the Chasm Hole was gone by the time CBM saw the Biarritz course.

Sven

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I'm not wrong. I'm not right either. Until someone can prove what Maccdonald's inspiration for the Biarritz was, it's all just conjecture.

[Sven Nilsen]

I'm not wrong. I'm not right either. Until someone can prove what Maccdonald's inspiration for the Biarritz was, it's all just conjecture.

Macdonald himself proved it.  He said it was the 12th hole at Biarritz (which was not the Chasm Hole).

Sven

[Jim Nugent]

I'm not wrong. I'm not right either. Until someone can prove what Maccdonald's inspiration for the Biarritz was, it's all just conjecture.

I don't think CBM reproduced the chasm on any of his Biarritz holes. 

One of those articles Jim Kennedy posted answers a question I asked earlier.  The trench at the Lido Biarritz was in front of the green, not contained in it. 

[Bill Brightly]

I think Biarritz is perfect example. I think he took the tee shot of the Chasm Hole in France and combined it with the rotated–if memory serves–of the 16th at North Berwick to make  sensational par-3 but gave the credit to others.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.

Anthony

The 16th at North Berwick had no part in the design of the Biarritz. That awesome green has a front and back section bisected by a very deep swale. The Biarritz holes built by  Macdonald, Raynor & Banks did not have the front sections as putting surfaces. The "front" was the approach leading to the swale and there was just one section for putting. It is only now that clubs are maintining the front section as putting surface that there is a strong resemblence to NB's 16th. That green is awesome and CBM loved the course. If he was copying that green, every Biarritz hole ever built would have had two sections. (Even if you believe that Yale's was always two sections.)

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Macdonald did not copy; he adapted. None of his holes are copies of the originals.

Bill: you are right, however, about the front portions of the Macadonald-Raynor-Banks Biarritz, none were built as greens. It was incorrectly assumed for years that Yale's Biarritz was all green, until about 10 years ago when I found a Hartford Courant story about the opening of the course where the writer calls the front portion "fairgreen."

So the Biarritz swale get's its inspiration from what hole?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Macdonald did not copy; he adapted. None of his holes are copies of the originals.

Bill: you are right, however, about the front portions of the Macadonald-Raynor-Banks Biarritz, none were built as greens. It was incorrectly assumed for years that Yale's Biarritz was all green, until about 10 years ago when I found a Hartford Courant story about the opening of the course where the writer calls the front portion "fairgreen."

So the Biarritz swale get's its inspiration from what hole?

There is a great thread on this one, started by Sven.

The swale most likely comes from the 12th (par-4) at Biarritz. But as far as the discussion went, there is no conclusive proof.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

That's my point, there is no conclusive proof. Just because Maconald or Raynor said where a hole came from does not mean they are exactly right. Go back a bit on this page and look at the first hole of Ocean Links, supposedly the 5th at Garden City. It's not a copy, it was inspired by the 5th where one side of the fairway gives a better approach to the green, but it looks nothing like the fifth. Look at the Country Life entry I posted, to me it's pretty obvious that Raynor took some inspiration from that drawing including the bunkering.

You think Macdonald wouldn't take the 16th at North Berwick, turn it and convert the front to fairway? This is the same guy who rotated the original Redan, green put a raised section in the middle of Short at National, which I don't believe the hole from Brancaster had, and designed Road Holes without "roads" behind the greens.

[Sven Nilsen]

Anthony:

Copied below are the quotes David Moriarity compiled in another thread that describe the inspiration for the Biarritz template (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html).  In short, there was a hole at Biarritz, a not very good par 4, that had a hogsback (raised area) in front of the green with the land after the hogsback dropping back down in front of a (raised) plateau green.  CBM adapted these features from the Par 4 onto a long Par 3.  Over the years, the hogsback in front of the green has become what we know think of today of the front portion of a Biarritz green.

CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection." 

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz: 

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

I'd suggest reading that thread in its entirety.  It is conclusive that the inspiration for the Biarritz template came from the 12th hole at Biarritz.  The only thing that isn't conclusive is exactly which hole was the 12th at Biarritz when CBM saw the course.  But we do know that it wasn't the Chasm Hole.

Sven

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