Lido - A Redux

[Sven Nilsen]

Two more old threads with some interesting commentary on the course:  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7446.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,6491.0.html

[Nigel Islam]

Quote from article in post #39 by Sven

"But the beautiful tees are so long that, when required several hundred yards may be lopped off from this distance."

Is this describing a tee length like Trent Jones would later make very popular? I have a hard time telling from the pics, perhaps Tom Doak could answer this better.

[Sven Nilsen]

Quote from article in post #39 by Sven

"But the beautiful tees are so long that, when required several hundred yards may be lopped off from this distance."

Is this describing a tee length like Trent Jones would later make very popular? I have a hard time telling from the pics, perhaps Tom Doak could answer this better.

Nigel:

Lido was described as three separate courses depending on what tees were played in a number of articles.  It was a strong test of game from the back tees, very playable from the middle set, and offered plenty of room for the duffer from the shortest.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

The May 1927 edition of Golf Illustrated contained a write-up of the course by Joshua Crane, including his "scientific" breakdown of the individual holes and the course in its entirety.

[Bret Lawrence]

An image of the 8th hole (the "Biarritz") taken from the March 1933 edition of Golf Illustrated.

Tom,

I think you're right about the course being too dangerous as built.  If you read the caption in the above photo, I think they are referring to a lawsuit, instead of a golf match!

Sven,

This is what George had to say about the 8th hole at Lido in 'The Evangelist of Golf"
 

Here is an aerial from sometime after 1928, also from 'The Evangelist of Golf'.  To me, it looks like you can see the remnants of the old 8th hole along the beach.
I also notice more buildings going up in the area of the old clubhouse.  If you notice, the old clubhouse is in the background of every picture you posted of the eight green.  They moved the club house to the larger structure in 1928, according to 'The Evangelist of Golf'.

Bret

[Tom_Doak]

Bret:

Yes, I noticed the caption on the photo was about a player getting hit by a ball, though I couldn't tell if it happened at Lido or whether they were just using a photo of it to illustrate the case.

Notice, too, the comments by Joshua Crane about the 8th hole in 1927 ... already shortened to 165 yards.  That must be where I'd read about the storm to begin with.

[Mark Fedeli]

I don't have the means to post the actual photo at the moment but here is a 1940 aerial shot that Colin Sheehan shared a few years back:

https://plus.google.com/app/basic/photos/photo/110429368341669114147/5681177497028883138?cbp=1jsmcpyqavyeh&sview=20&cid=5&soc-app=115&soc-platform=1&pct=ab&pcv=5442636741996017201&spath=%2Fapp%2Fbasic%2Fphotos%2F110429368341669114147%2Falbum%2F5442636741996017201&sparm=banner%3Dpwa%26gpsrc%3Dpwrd1

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:

Thanks for adding that info in.

Took the liberty of zooming in on the area of the 8th.

[Bret Lawrence]

An early image of the course, not sure what hole this was (guessing the Punchbowl).

George included this picture on page 175 of 'The Evangelist of Golf'.  The caption read:  the Punchbowl green at Lido's 433 yard-Par 4 12th hole. (Golf Illustrated).  

You can see the lagoon in the top left of the photo.  Looks like a green to the top right of the photo, maybe the 14th?

[Craig Disher]

Sven and Jim:

I remember reading [likely in one of the several mentions of the course in GOLF ILLUSTRATED] that the original 8th hole along the beach was severely damaged by a storm after a few years, and replaced with a much shorter hole.  I figured when I saw the picture that was the rebuilt green and the design had been changed when it was shortened.  I was surprised to see the buildings so close, but that green was set right at the corner of the property.

One other reason that the course had some "issues" was that the original design was quite crowded together.  I remember looking at the old aerial photos and being shocked to see how close #16 was to both the 17th tee and the 12th fairway.  When I discussed the project with George B. and Mike K. years ago, that was one of the things I said, you'd have to space things further apart in any re-creation of the course, it would be too dangerous if it was built exactly to the original plan.

This is correct. The original 8th was damaged by storms and was rebuilt. The large buildings to the right of the green in reply #3 are between the green and the ocean and were built sometime in the mid 30s. The Crane article contains a photo of the original 8th.

Let's be clear on why the course disappeared. The Navy requisitioned the property as a training site. I've seen the Navy maps that defined the area they wanted to claim. The transition from golf course to naval base was quick. Aerials from the early 40s show parts of the course in nearly perfect condition adjacent to flattened areas with rectangular military buildings. I can imagine a few of the early arrivals might have brought their clubs and played a quick nine during their off-time.

[BCrosby]

Craig -

Can you tell from the USN photos how much of Lido still existed at the time it was requisitioned?

Was the club itself still in business at the time? I want to say it had closed its doors before 1940 or so.

Bob

[Craig Disher]

Craig -

Can you tell from the USN photos how much of Lido still existed at the time it was requisitioned?

Was the club itself still in business at the time? I want to say it had closed its doors before 1940 or so.

Bob

The earliest USN photo shows the four holes below the road and the beach buildings still intact. The lagoon hole and the holes in the upper NW corner of the course were also playable. The Navy construction began in the middle of the property bordering the main road. Later, the NW holes were just abandoned and the beach buildings were torn down and replaced with naval facilities.

I don't believe the club closed prior to 1940. The late 1940 aerial shows it to be in perfect condition. It's possible the property had already been seized but if so, the course was still well maintained.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mark: the link doesn't lead to anything when I tried it.

I find it interesting that Macdonald so miscalculated the 8th that the hole was first shortened, then abandoned, then rebuilt a second time.

It seem illogical he would build a green so close to ocean. However, I heard an interesting story about how prior to 1938 there had not been a hurricane that had slammed New England/Long Island since 1894 and that was a Category 1. People were so convinced hurricanes would never return that cottages were built between the Misquamicut golf course and the ocean, essentially right on the beach. I wonder if Macdonald fell prey to that thinking?

Anthony

[Jim Nugent]

Lido must have been either unplayable or forgettable. 150 acres to a Vanderbilt, really?

My guess is that John is pretty much right.  We've already heard that the club had fallen on hard times.  Parts of the original course were changed and/or destroyed.  By the time the Navy took over, Lido was no longer the playground for the rich and famous.  If it still had been, I bet John is right here, too: the government would have found some other piece of land. 

[Søren Rye]

A plan of the course with the hole numbers and yardages noted (in reverse of the layout above).

From this picture holes 1 & 10, 2 & 11, and also holes 6 & 7 look very similar. It must have been a nearly identical start to the two nines.

[Craig Disher]

Lido must have been either unplayable or forgettable. 150 acres to a Vanderbilt, really?

My guess is that John is pretty much right.  We've already heard that the club had fallen on hard times.  Parts of the original course were changed and/or destroyed.  By the time the Navy took over, Lido was no longer the playground for the rich and famous.  If it still had been, I bet John is right here, too: the government would have found some other piece of land. 

I'd sure like to see evidence for what you say. The original owners had sold the course but I've never seen anything to suggest that it didn't continue to be as formidable as when it was built. The only part of the course that was changed significantly was the 8th and that was due to persistent sea encroachment. 1940 aerials show that every tee, green, bunker in the original plan was still in place. Bobby Jones and Horton Smith played a charity match in 1940 and even as late as 1942 the Long Island PGA was held there. Other great courses were taken over by the government during WWII and some didn't survive - remember Boca Raton South? Congressional CC was requisitioned and it barely survived. The Lido was a perfect site for the Navy - the right size, on a beach, and with a large hotel attached that could serve as a billet. There were some plans to rebuild The Lido after WWII but apparently the lure of housing won out.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lido -1940

The Channel Hole (top of the photo) was ca.140 yds across at its widest point.
 

[Sven Nilsen]

Lido must have been either unplayable or forgettable. 150 acres to a Vanderbilt, really?

My guess is that John is pretty much right.  We've already heard that the club had fallen on hard times.  Parts of the original course were changed and/or destroyed.  By the time the Navy took over, Lido was no longer the playground for the rich and famous.  If it still had been, I bet John is right here, too: the government would have found some other piece of land.  

Since we're continuing this line of speculation without offering any supporting facts, here's some more.

Lido was different than the other Millionaire's clubs on Long Island.  It was built as the first step in a master plan to develop Long Beach into a massive resort area, ala Coney Island.  This wasn't going to be a playground for the Vanderbilts and their buddies, it was going to be more along the lines of a resort course, where paying customers at the hotels were welcome to play the course while their families were spending the day walking the promenade and arranging for beach chairs on the sand.  Is it any wonder that the big names that originally funded the project weren't showing up any more?  After all, they still had Shinnie, NGLA, Piping Rock, The Links Club and a myriad of other private spots to get away from the hoi polloi.

Any issues of viability had nothing to do with the quality of the design of the golf course.  Anyone who has read this thread and thinks otherwise should be slapped upside the head.

[Matt MacIver]

If Turnberry could get turned into a base for the RAF I don't see why Lido, a resort shape in very good shape, couldn't be claimed for war effort, either.

[John Kavanaugh]

The United States of America doesn't take anything from rich politically connected people unless they want it taken.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The United States of America doesn't take anything from rich politically connected people unless they want it taken.

By the time Lido was taken it was owned by the Seidens, not the Senator and the other wealthy individuals who built it. The Seidens paid 965k for Lido, the government paid them 1.3 mil for it, and they bought part of it (the hotel and 54.5 acres) back in 1946 for 630k, but they also had to pay 83k to James Hunt, a D.C. influence peddler, to help them reacquire it. Men like Hunt were called "5 percenters" because of their influence peddling in post WWII.  

Here's why they weren't able to buy all the property back from the government. They probably wouldn't have had to bring any lawsuits if they were politically connected.
  
http://www.leagle.com/decision/1951849188F2d661_1631.xml/SEIDEN%20v.%20LARSON

!942 seems to be the last year that Lido was in operation. In addition to the events mentioned by Craig, Lido was one of the qualifying sites for the Hale American National Open. By September of 1943 the Navy baseball team was using the fairways as practice grounds.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

You have to forgive John, he's hamstrung by his unwillingness to dig in and do his own research.  Thus he's prone to developing his thesis before he's reviewed the facts.

Sven

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim:

You have to forgive John, he's hamstrung by his unwillingness to dig in and do his own research.  Thus he's prone to developing his thesis before he's reviewed the facts.

Sven

   I've always appreciated his off-the-cuff-stuff.  

[Adam Warren]

So let me get this straight. This great NLE course was taken by the navy and nobody tried to bring it back when the war ended.  Why was the effort not made to bring it back.

Also, I've seen a lot of people that never played the course talk about what a wonderful design it was.  What features were wonderful? Do you know? From what I've seen people post, the evidence has been posting articles and quotes where people have said it was a great course.  Golf Digest might say what a great course Valhalla or the goofy Art Hills course here in KY Persimmon Ridge is, so does that make it great?

So this course was basically man made, moved a lot of earth, and in the case of the 8th apparently, was unsustainable.  Who even knows how sustainable the rest of it was.  Nobody made an effort to bring it back to life after the war, so that probably tells you the kind of condition it was in.  With all the minimalist talk here, not to mention talking of sustainability here, I am surprised to see all the praise.  Additionally, everybody talks about "width" and "forced carries" and those features on Lido seem to go against the GCA line of thinking around here.

My opinion? If Fazio, Art Hills, or some randoms name was on this course it would be ripped to shreds.  I haven't dug into this deeply, but first impression, that is what I am seeing. 

[Craig Disher]

Jim,
After the war, Seiden did plan to rebuild the golf course. A successful restoration wouldn't have been easy but enough fresh memories were around that would have made it possible. I hadn't been able to discover why he didn't follow through but the lawsuit you cited contains the likely explanation. He didn't have control over the property north of the road where the bulk of the course existed. I always thought it was because he discovered more profit in housing.