Lido - A Redux

[Sven Nilsen]

Adam:

When you getting around to digging more deeply into it, you can start here:

"In the matter of much discussed "championship courses" [Donald] Ross thought there were only three in the United States really adapted for a supreme test of open championship golf, the National Links, Lido and Pine Valley, none of which was built by himself."

Golf Illustrated, Sept. 1922

Sven

[Howard Riefs]

Sven,

Thanks for your time and effort in putting the thread together and guiding the discussion. The Golf Illustrated article said the course was "near" Long Beach. Can you please show on a present-day map the exact location? Thanks.

[Jim Nugent]

Lido must have been either unplayable or forgettable. 150 acres to a Vanderbilt, really?

My guess is that John is pretty much right.  We've already heard that the club had fallen on hard times.  Parts of the original course were changed and/or destroyed.  By the time the Navy took over, Lido was no longer the playground for the rich and famous.  If it still had been, I bet John is right here, too: the government would have found some other piece of land. 

I'd sure like to see evidence for what you say.

George Bahto, from the "Jump the Shark" thread:

"The course (Lido) stayed intact for a pretty long while until they got in trouble financially and had to sell off the ocean holes - that was the beginning of the end.  But well before that when the Lido Club hotel was built in 1928 there was a move to get the project reestablished. Things looked pretty good for a while but then the depression of ‘29 really blew a hole in the project."

And another quote from George, from a thread Dan King started:  "They never really got back into the project the way they originally intended after the war (WWI) and the course began a long period of deterioration and money problems (even thought he great clubhouse was built in 1928) and after a time some of the ocean holes were sold off and the course shortened."

So the course had deteriorated, for a long time... faced money problems... and the owners had to bastardize the course, by selling the ocean holes, changing the routing, and shortening it.  i.e. Lido 1940 sounds very different from the course CBM designed and built.  It had problems even during the 1920s... and the GD blew a hole in the entire project. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Thanks for your time and effort in putting the thread together and guiding the discussion. The Golf Illustrated article said the course was "near" Long Beach. Can you please show on a present-day map the exact location? Thanks.

Howard:

Hope this helps.

1947 Map -



Today -

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

To say the course had financial problems is much different than saying the course was either "unplayable or forgettable."

I've read quite a bit from the era, and from my reading it seems the course was considered on of the three best courses in Anerica.  Sven has provided a few citations.

[Sven Nilsen]

So the course had deteriorated, for a long time... faced money problems... and the owners had to bastardize the course, by selling the ocean holes, changing the routing, and shortening it.  i.e. Lido 1940 sounds very different from the course CBM designed and built.  It had problems even during the 1920s... and the GD blew a hole in the entire project.  

Jim:

Please tell me exactly what ocean holes were "sold off."  If you could also tell me how the routing changed, I'd appreciate it.  While you're at it, exactly where, other than the erosion of the original 8th green, had the course deteriorated?

Here's the original plasticine plan for the course:



Here's the course map:



Here's the 1940 Aerial posted earlier in the thread:



Looks like almost the same course to me.

[Jim Nugent]

So the course had deteriorated, for a long time... faced money problems... and the owners had to bastardize the course, by selling the ocean holes, changing the routing, and shortening it.  i.e. Lido 1940 sounds very different from the course CBM designed and built.  It had problems even during the 1920s... and the GD blew a hole in the entire project.  

Jim:

Please tell me exactly what ocean holes were "sold off."  If you could also tell me how the routing changed, I'd appreciate it.  While you're at it, exactly where, other than the erosion of the original 8th green, had the course deteriorated?

Sven, good questions, that I can't answer.  I'm basing much of this on George Bahto's quotes, in threads across many years.  e.g. he said holes (plural) were sold off.  That has to mean re-routing.  They had to create new holes to replace the ones they sold. 

George also said the course began a long period of deterioration, financially and physically, that started in the 1920s.  Again quoting George from David Moriarty's shark thread (very worthwhile reading): "It still comes down to the founders and the money men losing interest and the course itself just starting to drift and deteriorate after the war (WWI). I think some of it may have been that Peter Lees, who was to stay on as super, left to go on to other jobs - so with him gone I’m certain the conditioning of the course deteriorated. He went on to super’s jobs at a couple Raynor courses that I know of and I think he built a couple courses also."

Maybe George is wrong.  He said, "it is a very interesting story and over the years I’ve come up with a treasure trove of information and photos that did not appear in the Macdonald book." And that was a common theme in those older (and real interesting) threads: Lido never achieved what CBM wanted (he was disappointed with the final product)... the big-money guys backed away pretty early as WWI threw a monkey wrench into their plans there... and a slide that started in the 1920s greatly accelerated during the depression.

David: I took "unplayable or unforgettable" as typical Jaka hyperbole.  Main thing I got out of Jaka's points was that Lido 1940 was no longer a precious gemstone of America's movers & shakers.  It likely was no longer one of America's top few courses.  The Navy did not requisition a Pine Valley, or an ANGC, or NGLA.  And if all those things had been true, the men who ran the US back then would have made certain the Navy found some other real estate to build on.  All that seems pretty likely to me. 

As to whether the course was overrated, Tom Doak brings up that possibility, when he says, "That last statement makes me wonder for the first time whether Lido was really as good as it was cracked up to be, or whether some of its #2 ranking was simply awe over the scope of the project and how it came to be, much like Shadow Creek."

The "last statement" is the fact that Lido disappointed CBM. George agreed with Tom, pointing out that the founders were real promoters. 

Sven, I don't know how to reconcile all this with the photos you posted.  btw, I agree with Howard: another excellent thread. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

Was hoping this thread would go more in the direction of discussing the actual golf course in detail, as opposed to the vagaries of mid-20th Century Long Island Real Estate Listings and Society Page Announcements.

I'm convinced the course was one of the best tests of the game of golf to be found in the United States, even after it was softened (perhaps a better word than deteriorated) over its later years (I'll post more on this tomorrow).  But if others want to believe that a series of ownership changes and government seizure mean it wasn't as good as claimed by numerous credible sources (does it get more credible than Darwin and Ross?), that is their prerogative.

To get back on point a bit more, the comment was made that "Additionally, everybody talks about "width" and "forced carries" and those features on Lido seem to go against the GCA line of thinking around here."  I had to do a double take when I read this.  To focus just on the forced carries aspect, of the two holes that had significant water carries (Cape and Channel), both offered options for the shorter hitter.  They also both offered rewards for the heroic golfer, with a conversely appropriate penalty for those that misjudged their capabilities.  There isn't an architecture tome out there that doesn't address these design attributes (diagonal carries, staggered fairways, etc.) as having redeeming qualities.

What am I missing that someone would think this course is full of forced carries, or that the forced carries that were required are in any way egregious, especially if played from the forward or middle tees?

Or to put it another way, if you have problems with Lido, does that mean you have problems with NGLA as well?

Sven

[Jason Way]

Thanks for finding and posting all of this info Sven, and for leading the discussion.  A few quotes from the early articles stood out to me:

“One will always see however that it is the creation of man and not the creation of Nature, for it has, as most holes on this course have, the technical design of an architect rather than the inimitable design of nature.” - CB Mac

“This plan was all worked out in a plasticine model by Charles B. Macdonald who has done more for golf in this country than any other man, and, who may justly be called the pioneer of golf course construction on scientific lines.” P Lees

“But if (nature) were animate and could speak, she would have to admit that the hand of man has fashioned a golfing ground better than any she has had to offer and upon this eighteen holes have been laid out that could not be improved upon.” - P Lees

It is difficult, if not impossible, in retrospect so separate the hype from the fact.  This was a time in history that was driven by hype and hubris.  When the reckoning came, I don't think it was as logical and tidy as John K's analysis would seem to indicate.  It was a big old mess, as comeuppance often is.

Understanding why it failed is not what's interesting to me in considering the potential resurrection of The Lido.  What interests me is how some daring architect might deal with the challenges: 
* This kind of man-over-nature architecture seems to me to be no longer en vogue.  Is the spirit in the quotes above going to be a part of the new project, or do we just chalk that up to "Charley being Charley" and move on?
* If Lido was built in the "ideal course" mold, how does that get translated into the present?  Are the same strategies, features, and hole types still considered "ideal" today, or has the game evolved beyond them to some extent?
* Where on the spectrum between "inspired by" and "reproduction of" the Lido will the new course fall?  Where does it have to fall on that spectrum in order to appropriately bear the name?

To me, it doesn't matter in the end what went wrong.  The course is gone, none of us played the original, and the rest is just fun coffee-house talk.  What I think is incredibly intriguing, is the idea of sitting down and trying to decide what was right about, and therefore ought to be carried forward.  And then, even more, how to impose what was right about it on a piece of ground, in Central FL, or wherever. 

Whether you believe the course was a great challenge or not, creating a modern-day Lido would most certainly be a great challenge.

[Sven Nilsen]

Two more photos of the course, forwarded on to me by interested parties:

[Sven Nilsen]

The following article by Tillinghast on course construction appeared in the June 1928 edition of Golf Illustrated.  I was surprised at the similarities between the project he discussed and Lido.

[David Davis]

This really is a great thread.

Do we have any members that experienced it first hand and actually played it? If it closed end of 1942 it's definitely possible. Or at least that some of our guys know someone who played it. Maybe Pat Mucci knows people that have played it?

Anyone 90 -95 years old could of played it when they were young maybe even been member with their family together?

It would be really cool to have first hand information.

[jeffwarne]

Considering how hard it is for me to remember the original course I grew up on pre multiple renovations, it would seem hard to believe someone could really accurately remember a course they played 70-75+ years ago.

Having played the current version of Lido, I see it occupies much of the same ground.
How much different is it? i.e. do any of the original holes remain?
Obviously the seaside holes were sold off,but it appears the hotel and associated buildings were the only thing "beachfront"

Great thread by the way

OT-Love to see Timber Point get a little love

[Sven Nilsen]

Considering how hard it is for me to remember the original course I grew up on pre multiple renovations, it would seem hard to believe someone could really accurately remember a course they played 70-75+ years ago.

Having played the current version of Lido, I see it occupies much of the same ground.
How much different is it? i.e. do any of the original holes remain?
Obviously the seaside holes were sold off,but it appears the hotel and associated buildings were the only thing "beachfront"

Great thread by the way

OT-Love to see Timber Point get a little love

Jeff:

The existing course is on an entirely different piece of property than the old course, the new one being located about 150 to 200 yards due east of the eastern boundary of the old.  No original holes remain (Tommy N. figured this out a while back, even though the MGA book says otherwise).  Bret Lawrence pointed out that in the 1966 aerial on the historic aerials site the new course is visible and you can make out the old 9th green of the old course to the southwest.

Mucci would be the authority on word of mouth about the old course.  In another thread he noted the praise for the course that he had heard from others.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Two images of the old Channel Hole.  The first is taken from a series of advertisements done by Silver King describing great golf holes (June 1930 Golf Illustrated).



The second is from a July 20, 1942 Life Magazine article describing 18 of the best holes in the country.

[Howard Riefs]

Howard:

Hope this helps.

Very helpful. Thanks.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Those look to be incredible steep bunker faces in the most recent aerial posted of the course. I'm referring to the two large fairway bunkers near the road. The shadows seem to give a good perspective.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Looks like they abutted one another, but not the same land.

[Craig Disher]

Sven,
Do you know the original source of the two overhead photos? I'm wondering whether they were commercial photos showing off the hotel and beach club or perhaps produced by the Navy as part of their survey of the property. The first one predates 1940 but the second looks similar in time to the aerial. The photos show that for a few years prior to 1940 that the course was in great condition.

Jeff,
The new Lido GC doesn't share any ground with the original.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Quotes from Scotland's Gift, published in 1928

"Visiting the Lido course recently for the first time in two or three years, I was quite surprised and disappointed to find it had been permitted to run down."

"But after the great flourish of trumpets by the original organizers as to the future of this course, to find they had all left it and permitted  it to fall into the hands of a real-estate development company—people who knew little about golf and cared, but who simply held the club together to further real-estate venture—was a bitter disappointment to me."

Macdonald writes that because tides washed away part of the eighth it was entirely changed and because of that 9 had to be altered.

"Various alterations of a minor nature have been made which did not add to the excellence of the course. There had been no one there to watch the run of the ball and adapt the alterations which would be suggested under such circumstances. The fines holes, namely the fourth, fifth, seventh, twelfth, fifteenth and eighteenth, are still marvelous exhibits of golfing architecture, but they are not kept up. An ideal golf course must be controlled and developed by men who love and are devoted to the game without any possible emolument."

Macdonald wrote that the fourth was patterned after the sixteenth at Littlestone, except that Littlestone did not make "a separate fairgreen among the dunes where there was a perfect setting for it," thereby creating the alternate fairway.

"Altogether my pilgrimage to the Lido brought only sadness to me, and I returned home feeling as if it were love's labor lost. To make matters more depressing, it was intimated to me that the present owners of the property intend abandoning holes on the ocean front, developing for residential sites, some sixteen to twenty acres."

[Sven Nilsen]

Anthony:

My guess is this is where Bahto got the idea that ocean front property had been sold off.  As we can see by the later aerials, that was not the case.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
Do you know the original source of the two overhead photos? I'm wondering whether they were commercial photos showing off the hotel and beach club or perhaps produced by the Navy as part of their survey of the property. The first one predates 1940 but the second looks similar in time to the aerial. The photos show that for a few years prior to 1940 that the course was in great condition.

Craig:

I don't have dates, but the presence of the new hotel narrows it down to some time between 1928 and WWII.  I agree that the second one would appear to be closer to the date of the 1940 aerial (the walkway through the bunkers on 7 shows up in both).  I also agree that the course looks to be in pretty good shape.

Sven

[jeffwarne]

Quotes from Scotland's Gift, published in 1928

"Visiting the Lido course recently for the first time in two or three years, I was quite surprised and disappointed to find it had been permitted to run down."


 it was intimated to me that the present owners of the property intend abandoning holes on the ocean front, developing for residential sites, some sixteen to twenty acres."

If the course was deteriorating in the roaring 20's 1927-28, heaven help it in the ensuing 20 years

[Sven Nilsen]

Quotes from Scotland's Gift, published in 1928

"Visiting the Lido course recently for the first time in two or three years, I was quite surprised and disappointed to find it had been permitted to run down."


 it was intimated to me that the present owners of the property intend abandoning holes on the ocean front, developing for residential sites, some sixteen to twenty acres."

If the course was deteriorating in the roaring 20's 1927-28, heaven help it in the ensuing 20 years

If Macdonald visited soon after the major storm that necessitated the reconstruction of the 8th hole, I have no doubt the course looked pretty rough.  Ask Greg Tallman how the Cabo courses looked this past fall.

I read CBM's words a bit differently than others here.  He was a man of high standards, and when years later one of his projects didn't measure up to the ideals he had in mind during the creation and construction process, he was bound to be critical. 

There had been an ownership change, a departure of the builder of the course and its first greenskeeper in Peter Lees and a series of weather events that all contributed to the courses condition.

Perhaps his words lit a fire under the course ownership to get it back into shape. 

Its too bad he wasn't around in the Dark Ages to see what happened to many of his other courses.  He probably would have been apoplectic.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

The timing for this article seems appropriate.  I am borrowing it from another thread where it was posted by Anthony (who cited the New York Sun from some time in 1928).

I found the foreboding about the encroachment of development from as early as 1928 to be interesting.