The 2015 Midwest Mashie - Minnesota - FINAL RECAP AND OBSERVATIONS

[Steve Wilson]

As much as I hated to miss the Dixie Cup, I'm glad I chose to attend my first Mashie.  It's always so good to be able to put faces and voices to the written words we share on this site.


I want to join everyone in thanking Jason and Pat for organizing this event and enabling us to be welcomed at their respective clubs.  I'm sorry I didn't get to spend any time with Pat but there are always more outings.  Four distinctive golf courses in three days.  I enjoyed them all and without getting into their relative merits I have to say I had the most fun at T and C.  But to hear that there were plans to knock the hill down on 6...well, there's nothing constructive I have to say to that.  That truly is a case of where par is a number.  I thought I misheard Rich Shefchik when he said it was the hardest four on the course.  I didn't look at the card and so assumed given it's playing properties that it was a 5. That's the glory of match play.  The only numbers that matter are your respective scores.


A great event, and I hope to make it to another one in the next few years.

[Criss Titschinger]

Wow! In a word, that sums up my Mashie experience. I’m still trying to take in the whole experience, so I'll have to save course commentary and photos for another post.

After last year's Mashie at Canterbury, I felt pretty down on my game. Those that played with me know how much I struggled. I used this year’s Mashie as a chance to rebuild a respectable game; physically and mentally. While I still have a ways to go, I'm more or less very pleased with how I played this year.

So many people to thank for this weekend. I may get a bit emotional here...

To Chandler Withington and Lisa Nelson at Hazeltine National for letting me check out the place and roam the clubhouse with all its historic memorabilia. As passionate as Minnesotans are about their golf, that's going to be a fun Ryder Cup next year.

To Chris Nathlich at White Bear Yacht Club for hosting me. I can’t properly describe how great that course is. Wilder and more undulating than I could have imagined.

To Jeff Shelman and Dan Kelly for hosting us at Midland Hills. I had to fly hundreds of miles to play my first Raynor despite the fact I live about 25 crow-flies miles from a pretty darn good one (i.e. Camargo Club), but it was worth it.

To Richard Mandell for sharing us details of his renovation at Keller. Has to be one of the best bang-for-your-buck courses in all of golf.

To Jason Topp for arranging our rounds and hospitality at Windsong Farm. The Murphy House was off-the-charts good. Loved the chats and camaraderie around the fire pit and lit up putting green. Perfect way to unwind after 36 hole days of golf.

To Pat Craig who did so much for us. Hosting us at Town & Country. Putting so much time and effort into organizing this year’s Mashie. For the many food recommendations. The pizza at Lola was outstanding. The Jiffy Burger at Blue Door Pub… well… that was a bit strange.

To Ken Fry for always helping to support my game. He knows I’m the high capper of the group, but always makes me feel welcome. Never cares what I shoot. Always making sure that I’m having a good time.

To all my playing partners this weekend. I had a blast playing with you all. Special thanks to Jerry Lettner for being a gracious host at Town & Country Club in my singles match with him. Loved his perspective of the course and being genuinely interested in our thoughts.

To everyone else; whether it’s the first time I met you or not. It was an absolute pleasure to get to know you more. Hope to see a lot of you next year and in the years to come.

Parting thought: I have got to make it back to Minnesota for golf. I felt like I only scratched the surface on the amount of great courses to play. Not just the Twin Cities, but the courses up north as well.

[PCCraig]

Criss,

Thank you for your note and for your kind words. It was great to meet you and I'm glad I at least made one good recommendation

I'm looking forward to your course commentary and photos.

I'll be sure to forward your note to Jerry who isn't on GCA.

Pat

[PCCraig]

As much as I hated to miss the Dixie Cup, I'm glad I chose to attend my first Mashie.  It's always so good to be able to put faces and voices to the written words we share on this site.


I want to join everyone in thanking Jason and Pat for organizing this event and enabling us to be welcomed at their respective clubs.  I'm sorry I didn't get to spend any time with Pat but there are always more outings.  Four distinctive golf courses in three days.  I enjoyed them all and without getting into their relative merits I have to say I had the most fun at T and C.  But to hear that there were plans to knock the hill down on 6...well, there's nothing constructive I have to say to that.  That truly is a case of where par is a number.  I thought I misheard Rich Shefchik when he said it was the hardest four on the course.  I didn't look at the card and so assumed given it's playing properties that it was a 5. That's the glory of match play.  The only numbers that matter are your respective scores.


A great event, and I hope to make it to another one in the next few years.

Steve,


It was great to have you up to Minnesota for the Mashie. I'm sorry we didn't get to catch up at all over the weekend, but I'm sure we will at the next Mashie. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed T&C!


Pat

[Jason Thurman]

Big thanks to the Twin Cities contingent for putting together the best top to bottom itinerary of any Mashie yet. I've talked to a few veterans of the event whose only complaint about past Mashies is that we didn't play enough rounds. I don't think anyone will have that complaint this time around. After 7 1/2 rounds in six days, I'm ready for a long layoff - at least 24 hours. The work that Pat Craig, Jason Topp, Dan Kelly, Jeff Shelman, Richard Mandell, and countless others chipped in to make this event a success should not go unnoticed.

Of course, more than the quantity of courses we played, the quality really shined. Midland Hills is simply a blast to play. Keller is a rollicking ride that doesn’t feel like a muni architecturally or agronomically. Windsong Farm is one of the finest settings I’ve seen for golf, and Town & Country is a complete paradigm-breaker and the quirkiest golf course I’ve played.

The worst thing about the golf courses we played was the quality of golf I played on them. I’ll give a giant thank you to my East Team brethren for making sure my poor performance didn’t matter to the final score. I’m especially happy for my neighbor Criss and the way he buried a tough weekend last year with an excellent one this time around. I’m especially thankful for Steve, Chris, and Criss for being willing to kick the Mashie off early with rounds at Lawsonia and White Bear Yacht Club. It was a joy to reunite the Ohio contingent of Steele and Hoover with this transplant at Midland Hills, even if the group was infiltrated by a West Teamer whose golfing prowess is only matched by his historical acumen and dedication to the study of our game’s playing fields. Nobody rolled with the punches this weekend like Rich, who had to make do with a dirty slut of a PowerBilt rental set at Keller and a pair of sandals when his clubs were left behind by the airline on the way in. Ordering family-portioned side items with Lietaer at The Butcher and Boar made my drunk ass feel like I’d won the vegetable lottery. Someday I’ll learn how to make restaurant-quality Brussels sprouts at home. It was a pleasure to revisit Iowa golf with Pete Pittock’s old partner and Doug over dinner Saturday, and to revisit the scene of the East Team triumph in Cleveland while talking courses with my dude Zucker. Last but not least, the Captain himself. Ken will tell you he did nothing to lead our team, but that’s simply not true. He quite literally led me everywhere I went this weekend, and without him and his phone’s GPS I’d likely have gotten lost in traffic going to the Warrens Cranberry Festival and spent the weekend with the Ocean Spray guys instead of all of you. Hell, even the West Teamers aren’t so bad, and I truly thank Rick, Dan, Dan, and Scott for their competition and for putting up with my frustration and outbursts when I struggled with my play. The camaraderie at this event always leaves me feeling refreshed and energized. It’s amazing how guys who were strangers a year or two ago have become people I look forward to seeing for weeks leading up into the Mashie, and equally amazing how quickly we’re able to forge bonds with new faces over golf, booze, and food once the festivities kick off.

 Seriously, my last note: The courses we played are worthy of much discussion, and the quality of golf near the Twin Cities deserves a much deeper exploration than what the archives of this site show or what this single thread can provide. I plan to start several threads over the next few days to discuss the wild and genuinely unique golf we saw as my thoughts become clearer, and I hope others will join.

[Dan Kelly]

Hell, even the West Teamers aren’t so bad, and I truly thank Rick, Dan, Dan, and Scott for their competition and for putting up with my frustration and outbursts when I struggled with my play.

I can't speak for Rick, Scott or the other Dan, but as for me:


I always find it remarkably easy to put up with an opponent's bad play and resultant frustration!


It was great to meet you, Jason. I enjoyed our round, and I look forward to your thoughts about the courses.


Sorry (sort of) that your driver and your putter betrayed you!


Dan

[Joe Zucker]

I will echo all of the comments made above.  The weekend was fantastic for many reasons.  The golf, the courses, the weather, and last but not least, meeting many fine GCA members.  The MN contingent made this a great weekend and I thank you all very much for making my first Mashie so welcoming.

I'll save my comments on the four great courses I played for later threads, but I will say that playing Town & Country the day after Windsong made for an excellent comparison of the old and new. To see  the most unique course I have ever played the day after playing a stout modern test really crystalized the varied playing fields our game has.  This is part of the reason golf is so great.  These two courses are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but both very enjoyable rounds. 

[PCCraig]

I plan to start several threads over the next few days to discuss the wild and genuinely unique golf we saw as my thoughts become clearer, and I hope others will join.

This would be awesome, Jason.


It was great meeting you this past weekend and I'm glad you had a good time here in Minnesota!

[Steve Wilson]

Jason,
I noticed this remark in your summation of the Mashie Experience.

After 7 1/2 rounds in six days, I'm ready for a long layoff - at least 24 hours.

Re: the layoff.  When I played the BUDA this year i managed 18 at Montrose, 36 at Arbroath, 18 more in a rain shortened day at Arbroath.
Driving from Carnoustie to Buxton.  18 at Cavendish.  36 at Sherwood.  36 at Holinwell. 18 at Holinwell followed by an 8 and half hour drive back to Golspie so I could get up and play Stableford with the Golspie seniors at 9.  I ended up playing 41 that day.[size=78%] [/size][/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size] That evening I told Jane, my landlady about my father's basset hound who, on a very warm for November rabbit season opening day chased five or six rabbits for several hours with no getting a shot.  On the way back to the car, a rabbit jumped out a few feet ahead of Ruff.  Dad said the dog quickly and pointedly looked away as though that rabbit never existed. [size=78%][/color][/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size][/color]
[/size]I told Jane that the next day I was going to pretend I didn't have any golf clubs.  About six that evening while driving by the course I thought "It wouldn't hurt to go walk a little." Once I got there it didn't make any sense to just walk when I could take a golf club for a walking stick.  And if I have a club I might as well take a couple of balls.[size=78%][/color]

Four holes later darkness and rain were fast approaching so I gave it up as the course returns near the club house at that point.  So, I jumped over and played 18 in the fading light just ahead of the drizzle.  I don't know if its a sickness or just a sport and a pastime but I do know that the amount of golf I play in a given time doesn't have much to do with how long I have to wait to be ready for more. Sounds like you are pretty much the same.

[C. Sturges]

Thank you for everyone who had a part in setting this years Mashie up!  Thank you!, Jason, Steve and Criss for premashie golf!  Thank you to Dan, Pat, Rich, Jason, Brian and there clubs, members and staff for such a mid western welcome.
As others have noted Minnesota has more great golf than any of us new and I am sure we all want to come back and play more.  Even if we play bad.
I want to thank everyone I played with, there were lots of ups and downs with my game.
But the most important part was becoming friends with other GCAers and fellow golfers.  It is always fun to put a face with a name, but more so to have more people to play this silly game with and appreciation for were we play, be it modern or old, it is just great to be able to be out there swinging a club and hopefully finding it.
For those of you who have not played a gca event, I challenge you to play at least one next year and you will truly know why GCA is a great web site with amazing people!!!


Thank you Midwest Mashie 2015 and I look forward to 2016!


Congratulations Ken Fry for proving last year was not a freak accident for team East.


chris

[Richard Choi]

Thanks from me as well to generous hosts who welcomed us to four very interesting and enjoyable courses. I would not hesitate to visit those courses again as they are kind of courses that invite deeper analysis and appreciation. I feel really lucky to have experienced them.

Great thanks also goes to Captain Fry and Craig who put on a great event. 2015 Midwest Mashie was a smashing success and much of that is due to you guys.

There are few things better in life than hanging out with a bunch of GCA'ers over an open fire with fine whiskey in hand talking about golf courses. I give Murphy House a Doak 10 (for a golf cottage). It was a fantastic place to hang out (Thanks Jason!).

[Criss Titschinger]

For those looking to play more in Minnesota, I have found the course guide found on the Minnesota Golf Association's site to be very accurate in terms of Contacts and various fees. For some reason, I can't find the sole course guide again, but the 2015 Media Guide contains the same information; you just have to dig past the tournament results section for the course information.


http://www.mngolf.org/Res/MGAMediaGuide_2015.pdf

[PCCraig]

For those looking to play more in Minnesota, I have found the course guide found on the Minnesota Golf Association's site to be very accurate in terms of Contacts and various fees. For some reason, I can't find the sole course guide again, but the 2015 Media Guide contains the same information; you just have to dig past the tournament results section for the course information.

http://www.mngolf.org/Res/MGAMediaGuide_2015.pdf

Criss,


Thanks for posting this. I just might add that unlike some cities like Boston, New York, or Chicago, the private clubs of the Twin Cities are unusually open to visitors. With a little common sense (i.e. - try to play during the week and in the spring & fall) and a phone call from your head pro you would be amazed at the quality of courses you can play. For example, the private clubs around town really quiet down after Labor Day and if you're willing to pay your way most clubs will happily let visiting golfers go play and look around.

[Cort Sylvester]

I want to thank everyone I played with, there were lots of ups and downs with my game.

chris

To my great displeasure, I know of the doings at the Mashie itself only from the reports posted here.  However, I have to say that there probably wasn't a greater contrast at Midland than that between Chris and me--as he hit one well-struck and fairway-bound driver after another, and I hacked my short and crooked tee balls into unfamiliar locales.  And yet, my guess is that somehow we ended up with reasonably comparable scores. 


Outstanding outing, and I certainly hope to do it again.  Maybe next time I'll actually be able to stick around for the competition. 

[PCCraig]

We're sorry to have missed you during the weekend rounds of the Mashie, Cort!

[Jason Lietaer]

First, I want to thank all you guys in the Twin Cities for having us out.  I had high hopes, and they were exceeded.  On the non-golf front: what a baseball stadium.


A few observations in no particular order:


1. Midland Hills was a lot of fun, especially the back 9.  I thought there were a few really cool holes: I liked the Eden and the Cape on the front, and the stretch on the back starting with the punchbowl was really cool.  I wish i was playing better that morning to have hit some good shots into those greens, but that'll have to wait for another time.
2.  Richard's renovation at Keller was good fun.  For a muni, it was a blast and I thought there were some really interesting green complexes.  I think he said that the short par 5 was his favourite spot on the course and I agree.   that downhill shot was really neat.   I thought the uphill par3 on the back was a pretty special hole. 
3.  the more i think about it, the more i liked the tree on the par 3 at Keller.  It was quirky and it's grown on me.  granted, I didn't really investigate the options around/under it, but I'll certainly never forget the hole.
4.  I thought Windsong Farm was an incredible setting.  Sort of reminds me of Redtail golf course here in Canada: a good golf course on an incredible setting.   The Murphy House, fire pit, etc was a great experience. 
5.  I was pleasantly surprised how much room there was at Windsong.  The pictures made it look tight before going, but there was plenty of room to play.  The group certainly tested it, but it was a blast.
6.  I really liked the course at Windsong, but didn't love the 18th hole.  I thought it was forced in there and looked out of character with the rest.  i would have much rather preferred a tee up far to the left and make it a par 4.  Others might disagree, I just think the hole could be great, and right now it's the only hole that I felt that way about out there.
7.  Town and Country was fun and quirky.   One of the quirkiest REAL golf courses i've ever played. 
8. i like the two par 3's back to back at the beginning.  I almost wish i would have hit a bad shot into number2 to try to recover from those bunkers earlier in the round.  Well, almost.
9.  The quirk kept me off balance all day out there.  I Felt like I was hitting decent shots but just hadn't figured out the course.  I feel like i need to play it about 5 times to figure out the misses. 
10.  Pat -- you had started a thread about the clubhouse one time.  for what it's worth, I thought the clubhouse was great.  Don't waste your money on anything but the course.  You'll never get it back if you shoot for a bunch of weddings and a huge great room.  That clubhouse has character.
11. The changes proposed by Jeff Mingay look really good, especially that area around the 18th green and 1st tee.  get those trees the hell out of there!
12.  the guys in the mashie were great.  it was great meeting [size=78%]you all, and thanks to ken and Thurman for taking me in on friday night for dinner. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]PAT, JEFF, DAN, JASON all you guys from MN: thanks again. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]GO BLUE JAYS[/size]
[/size]

[BHoover]

Jason, regarding your view about 18 at Windsong, you're not alone. It's my least liked hole on the course (at the very least because the tee shot doesn't fit my game), and I agree that it seems forced, a victim of the routing...almost as if the architect needed a tee shot there because of the proximity to 17 green.  I will admit that it's grown on me after a season of playing out there, but it's still just not my kind of hole.

I don't think it's as weak starting with the second shot, although I'd prefer to see the water hazard reduced.  My problem is the tee shot, because there's just so little room in the landing area with the creek right and the bunkers if you go through the fairway (except of course if you bail out left. In which case, you have all the room in the world). I suppose the argument can be made that it's a risk-reward tee shot, but it just seems out of place with the rest of the course where you have plenty of room off the tee.

I'm not sure I can vision the hole as a short(er) par 4, but I'll try to think about it during my next time out there. It sort of baffles me how the hole could be improved without major renovation, which is not currently planned.

Anyway, back to sleep...

[PCCraig]

Jason,


Thanks for your note. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself during your trip to MSP and that you enjoyed itinerary of courses we set up.


I'm glad you liked T&C. As I said before it's not necessarily the best golf course in the state or in town, but it certainly has features and holes you're simply not going to see anywhere else...which hopefully makes it made for a fun and interesting round.


We're certainly still "fighting the good fight" regarding the course at T&C. Hopefully in 10 or 15 years we might be able to host another Mashie and show off a completely restored golf course!


Regarding the 18th hole at Windsong, I don't mind it all that much. I think it gets knocked a lot because it's a "risk-reward" tee shot that is uphill and has water on the right side. It makes for an intimidating tee shot but in reality I don't think it's that hard of a fairway to hit (if you're ok with bailing out left). Perhaps I'm just not long enough off the tee to really take advantage of the risk/reward options on the hole, but I think if you play the hole smart the best way to make a birdie or easy par for most players is to play it as a three shot hole. In the past times I've played the hole, I've tried to leave myself with a 100-120 yard wedge from the left side of the fairway on my third shot.


I enjoyed our round at Windsong (well, the whole day really was great). I think the new course changes and bunker renovation are going to improve the course. The course grows on me each time I play it. It is just a big, tough, golf course that really makes me grind. After hitting more long iron approach shots in a day at Windsong than I do in a month at T&C I felt pretty good with a score in the 70's.


The entire Windsong experience is really a treat. Their clubhouse, locker room, pro shop, and patio set up might be the best in the Twin Cities.

[Dan Moore]

Its a week later and I wish I was still in the Twin Cities checking out the plethora of really good to great golf options the area has to offer. Coming from Chicago where the bench is deep but perhaps lacking in a superstar or two, it was really interesting to see what the Twin Cities has to offer.  Clearly the rolling land is ideal for golf.  My random thoughts are: Rick Shefchik's book is great and everyone should order a copy, Midland Hills has the most potential of all the courses we played if they could figure out how to enhance the Raynor that's left  and incorporate more of a Raynor touch to those holes that are no longer original Raynor especially 9 and 18, Keller was really good and made great use of the entire property, I really enjoyed the expansiveness of Windsong and thought the 18th hole would be fine sans waterfalls, and Town and Country was really fun even if I thought it would flow better and finish stronger if the nines were reversed-the 3,5,5,5,3 finish was a bit awkward even if 18 was the really good hole and I don't mind a course that finishes with a par 3.  And the best part of the trip was meeting a bunch of new folks.  Special thanks to our all of our Twin Cities hosts and Captains Fry and Craig for keeping it fun.  Cheers. 

[Jason Topp]

I am really enjoying the discussion of the courses and appreciate all of the kind notes.  I really appreciate my club's willingness to host 6 groups during prime weekend tee times on one of the nicest days of the year. 
Because this site is about open and unbiased discussion of architecture and because one of the impediments to such discussion is being ungracious to  your hosts, I thought it might be helpful to share my views of Windsong.  Ultimately, of course, I love the place.  I spent a lot of money to join.  However I have many opinions on the design.  My opinions evolve constantly and it is interesting to watch the changes and to try and guess how they will play.  At this time, here are my thoughts:
Strengths

• Width - you have 50 yards of corridor on every hole
• Green surrounds (love all of the short grass options)
• Terrific greens designed for fast modern speeds  (This viewpoint is probably inconsistent with many of your impressions.  However you saw them at relatively slow speeds and very soft surfaces.  Add 2 feet of speed and firm them up so that you cannot make ballmarks and the greens are a treat to play and extraordinarily challenging).
• Very good par 3's
• The best club culture (for me) I have ever experienced - passionate golfers who compete hard, gamble for relatively low stakes and are informal with facilities focused on golf rather than the extras at a country club
• Creativity - I love the 2nd green wrapping around a hillside sloping from front to back, the 3rd green with the lower back tier and the wacky challenges presented by the 14th green.
• Bunkers are hazards - the fairway bunkers serve as true hazards that make reaching the green impossible in some cases and require a terrific shot in most others.
• Back nine - I believe is a terrific collection of holes.

Weaknesses

• It is essentially a penal golf course - you pretty much want to aim down the center stripe on every hole.  With the exception of 3, 6 and 18 there is not much reward for aggression in terms of the line you choose off the tee.  I would love to see the bunkering scheme provide more temptation to the player.  The new fairway bunkers will help on this issue.
• Routing of the front nine - you play 5 north-south holes (2, 4, 5, 6, and 4 east-west holes. 
• Par 4's are the same length - from the blue tees nearly every par 4 is between 400-425 yards (other than 3 and 13).  There is more variety than one would first think because wind is such a big factor at the course (I have had wedge and 3wood into every one of those par 4's depending on the weather).  In addition the staff does a great job mixing up the tees to create variety.
• I am still getting used to the look with all of the new bunkers being built.  I think they will be an improvement but it is an intimidating look off the tee.
• The course seems to accentuate the advantages a longer player enjoys.  My drives tend to hit into the face of a hill and stop.  Longer hitters carry the hill and have it bound forward.  Someone who hits it 25 yards past me on a flat course seems to have a big additional advantage on this one.  On 17 for example - I believe I had a wedge in from the red tees in the morning and a hybrid or 3 wood in the afternoon from the blue tees - probably an 80 yard advantage despite tees that are 30 yards apart.   That difference in the past was accentuated by an advantage in width but the new bunkers neuter that advantage significantly.
• Par 3's are very similar in length.

Neutral observations

• The native areas have been a challenge for the club to create something that is beautiful but still provides the interesting recovery shots possible on a links course. 
• I go back and forth on the 18th - it is different from the rest of the course but reflects the land on which it is built.  It is one of the few holes on the course where people can gamble.  I think it is a little rough on the shorter player who has to bail out left off the tee and then faces a tight pinch point on the 2nd.  For the longer hitter the tee shot is a challenge but a great shot yields an opportunity to reach the green in two and an average shot leaves a real easy layup. 
• The greens pretty much require an aerial approach.  The greens, however are huge and might represent a nice modern approach to a links style course where one needs to fly it to the green but then control it afterwards so the ground game consists of roll on the green rather than in fairway short of the green.
• The par 4 greens generally open to the outside of the dogleg (11, 14, 15, 17) and I am intrigued as to why they are designed that way.  I think it takes strategic decision making away from the longer player but it does create some interesting decisions for me.

I tend to not think too much about aesthetics of a course.  I think in terms of how it plays.  I love the look of the natural areas but hate how they play.  I am not a huge fan of the blinding white sand but love the way the new bunkers are playing.  For me the bunkers will be a big plus and the native a negative at least until it becomes more playable.
FYI - It is my understanding that the waterfall on 18 at Windsong is indeed coming out as a part of the current project.
Thanks to everyone who attended.  I hope to see you again soon.
 
Jason 

[PCCraig]

Jason,


Thanks for posting your thoughts on Windsong. The club was indeed very generous for having us and the culture/set up of the club is second to none.


As I had said before, I liked really enjoyed our round at Windsong last week and I am enjoying the course more with more plays. I agree with most of your observations above. However, I would say my biggest negative to the course are the forced carries required to hit many of the greens. I'm not the longest hitter, nor the shortest, however there are quite a few shots (at least from the blue tees) on par-4's where you have to hit a long iron over a false front esque slope in front of the green. For example I was playing #14 (I believe) when I hit what I thought was a perfectly hooked 3-iron toward the pin....however it hit a few feet short of the green and stopped when I thought it might of had a chance of bouncing forward and running toward the back pin.


As you said, most of the greens open up to the  outside of the dogleg, where I am guessing most shorter hitters leave their tee shots. Perhaps the architect was trying to make the shot from that angle more difficult by having to carry the false front, as punishment for "bailing out?"


I think there are a lot of interesting green complexes at Windsong, but I suppose my opinion is that they built them up too high. If given the opportunity to start over, I wonder if the course would be more interesting for a wider variety of golfers if the greens were more low profile?


Also, this might come off as 180* from most posters' views on here, but I actually like the white sand at Windsong. For one, it is very playable sand, and secondly, I think it works well visually.


Is there anyplace online where the new master plan is posted? I know there is a copy in the clubhouse, but after a few Surly's and a lot of hard up and downs I was zoned out a bit when the opportunity to study the plan arose.

[Jason Topp]

I guess I will "Mucci" you post Pat

Jason,
As I had said before, I liked really enjoyed our round at Windsong last week and I am enjoying the course more with more plays. I agree with most of your observations above. However, I would say my biggest negative to the course are the forced carries required to hit many of the greens. I'm not the longest hitter, nor the shortest, however there are quite a few shots (at least from the blue tees) on par-4's where you have to hit a long iron over a false front esque slope in front of the green. For example I was playing #14 (I believe) when I hit what I thought was a perfectly hooked 3-iron toward the pin....however it hit a few feet short of the green and stopped when I thought it might of had a chance of bouncing forward and running toward the back pin.


I completely understand where you are coming from.  An important aspect of the course (rightly or wrongly) is that it was designed for a low handicap membership.  The elevated greens work great for that group.

The course seems to play much longer for me than other courses of comparable length.  Giant's Ridge Quarry is an example of a course that has tees almost the identical length but is much more comfortable for me to play.  That course has a few 450 yard par 4's that I am rarely going to hit but more holes in the 350-375 range that are more comfortable for a short hitter.  Apparently the math (and the extra par 5) make for a course that seems much more reasonable for me to play.

Next time let's play from the reds because it is a completely different experience.  The greens are pretty much designed so they can be approached with a wedge or a 3 wood because the wind is a factor all of the time.  Nonetheless, as you suggest, with a 3 wood you are not going to hit many greens.  The wind we played in makes the course play much longer - 2, 6, 9, 14, 15 and the 2nd shot on 18 are all relatively long difficult holes that play much more difficultly when fighting a southeast wind.

Your experience on 14 is why the hole is my favorite on the course.  On 14, I generally hit approach shots to the right edge of the green.  On that side there is opportunity for the ball to run up and the slopes cradle the ball so you have a very good chance at par.  If you stay short as your shot did, it is pretty straightforward to make par.  You are always tempted, however, to go at the pin.  If you go towards the middle of the green or left you have about 5 yards of landing area between having it funnel back or run over the green.  In either case, if you miss saving par is very difficult.  It is a very natural greensite that persons all types of interesting decisions and temptations whether you have a wedge in your hand or a 3 wood. The shorter your approach the easier the aggressive shot becomes but it is not easy unless the pin is on the right. 


As you said, most of the greens open up to the  outside of the dogleg, where I am guessing most shorter hitters leave their tee shots. Perhaps the architect was trying to make the shot from that angle more difficult by having to carry the false front, as punishment for "bailing out?"


I do not know.  I do know it punishes me.  I hope to ask John Fought when I get the chance.  He is at the course frequently.


I think there are a lot of interesting green complexes at Windsong, but I suppose my opinion is that they built them up too high. If given the opportunity to start over, I wonder if the course would be more interesting for a wider variety of golfers if the greens were more low profile?



See above for my thoughts.

Also, this might come off as 180* from most posters' views on here, but I actually like the white sand at Windsong. For one, it is very playable sand, and secondly, I think it works well visually.


We will see.  I like how it plays and that is far more important than appearance in my opinion.


Is there anyplace online where the new master plan is posted? I know there is a copy in the clubhouse, but after a few Surly's and a lot of hard up and downs I was zoned out a bit when the opportunity to study the plan arose.


Tell me about it.  I was still recovering from the night before.   I have not seen plans online. 

[Criss Titschinger]

After reflecting for the week, I feel like I gave Windsong too harsh a judgement primarily based on my below-average handicap/playing ability. It’s a ball-buster, don’t get me wrong. Its 139 slope from the 6300 tees will attest that. However, there is plenty of width out there, and plenty of areas to be safe on. I was lucky to save my worst two blocks of the day for hole 6, where the massive combined fairway saved me both times; though forcing me to lay up and play it like a par 5.

What I’m probably trying to say is: I never felt like there was a hole I couldn’t finish by the rules of golf. 15 and 18 were difficult, yes. 6 didn’t have to be as hard of a hole as I made it.

It might be basic of me for saying this, but I really liked 16. It’s a brute of par 3, but there’s plenty of room to play it safe for an up/down par. Or, you can take on the flag and deal with the water in front, or the sloping green in back. It may have also helped I saved one of my shots of the weekend for that hole in the Mashie round, sending a 5 iron to about 20 feet, and just missing out on a birdie putt.

I think Jason’s analysis is plenty fair, and matches what I think about the course/club overall, plus/minus/neutral. Initially, I rated it last in the 2015 Mashie rota, but I’m changing my mind. I do prefer older courses with quirk, so a modern brute was never going to be my favorite. Then again, I’m not the target audience for this type of design. But for what it is, I think the course is good.

The culture though is fantastic. I, too, was surprised to see the amount of kids playing out on a weekend. Sure, most of them were wearing Puma, but if the little Rickie Fowlers are enjoying the game, that makes me happy. The number of families having dinner at the club on Saturday also surprised me. I fully expected a bro-vironment, but that wasn’t the case at all. I’m with Rich; the Murphy House was a Doak 10 all the way. I was looking for a retreat-style, laid back environment, and it was all that and then some.

I had Midland at #2, and I think that stays the same even if I could play it with the greens in normal shape. The Punchbowl hole was fantastic. However, there’s just something about the unique design at T&C that was always going to make it my favorite.

Which leaves Keller. Originally, I had it above Windsong, but I think I swap the order now. I think I skewed that course higher because it was my best round of the weekend. I also wonder if the price point is affecting my judgement. It’s got to be one of the best bang-for-your-buck in U.S. golf. The best muni played before Keller was Sleepy Hollow in Cleveland. While I liked Sleepy Hollow, Keller is head and shoulders above it. I think good, uphill par 3's are under-appreciated, and I thought the 13th was one of the best par 3s I played all weekend. I still don't know about that tree on 4 though.

I will get around to posting some pics of White Bear... eventually. I have zero doubts that was my favorite of my trip, and that was never really in question.

[Jason Topp]

The culture though is fantastic. I, too, was surprised to see the amount of kids playing out on a weekend. Sure, most of them were wearing Puma, but if the little Rickie Fowlers are enjoying the game, that makes me happy.

I love that aspect as well.  We have at least three members playing Division 1 golf;  Lexi Bollant (GRU Augusta), Grady Meyer (Minnesota) and Alex Greenagle (Creighton) and a number of others playing Division II or III. 
There are also gang of others in the pipeline.  Ben Sigel is probably the most highly touted.  He is ranked on the AJGA listings in the 200 range with very few starts.  One policy that I believe helps a lot is that Juniors are allowed to bring guests at a $20 rate (at least the last time I looked).  Thus we have groups of the top junior players in town on our course.  Throw in the college golfers and the old guys and there are a lot of good swings on the range.

[Buck Wolter]

I thought Windsong was fantastic -- the best decision our group made was playing at 6,300 yards which for this 12 was plenty but never felt over-whelming. It was the only course of the 4 I hadn't played before and I think it is an almost perfect golf club. It is a nice mix of holes with a very strong set of Par 4's. Definitely too nice of a place for our rag-tag group but the staff and everyone else I came into contact treated us like Head's of State -- the short rib bruschetta may be the best appetizer I've ever had. If you get a chance to talk with John Crowley about the history and development of the club you should definitely do it as he was very involved -- when I grow up I want to be like John or at least play the same courses he does. The Bluestem native would be my only complaint as it was essentially a hazard, it would be nice to see it turned into a more diverse and playable Minnesota prairie in my opinion though I'm guessing that thinning native is not the easiest process to manage.

One of the coolest things about Windsong was playing golf on a 'live' construction site --it was almost like a video game on some holes though I'm sure it made it difficult to 'rate' the course. Doug Siebert's ball was almost knocked out of the air by the arm of a greenside excavator but he just cleared it for a tap-in birdie (Bill Steele hit the dump truck). There was a centerline bunker on the next hole (15?) that was dug out but not filled and was basically a half pipe ---Bill ran  his ball through the bunker and it was like a ramp towards the green. Made me wonder if you could take a more mundane course and add interest with mad made features --but that is another thread.

One other shot of note was Scott Skorupa banking his 'pitch'  off a Silo 40 yards behind this green to about 30 ft -- he just missed the putt or it would have been the most extraordinary up and down I've seen.




The weekend confirmed my infatuation with Midland Hills and that I am perplexed by T@C. I could play the Biarritz, Cape and Punchbowl at Midland all day and I really like #1 as a starter. T@C reminds me of Owatonna CC where I play most off my golf-- there are many awkward  tee shots, preferred angles and  interesting greens that need multiple plays to understand how to tack around it  though my opponent Evil Bill Steele seemed to take to it immediately (-1 gross after 3 holes for a 16!). Both are outstanding 'City' clubs.

The hospitality showed by the hosts is standard practice up here and to a man the MNGCA group is a generous and welcoming crew. Thanks again to everybody who put in the time and effort to make this happen --especially Pat and Jason.

Finally congrats to Captain Biggie and the rest of Team East Coast  -- the West will win next years Mashie on the 20th anniversary of Tupac's murder.