Will Sand Valley be built with carts in mind?

[William_G]

As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.

Turf?
Routing?
Tees?
Greens?
Bunkers?
etc...

What will Keiser do and was this part of the shootout won by DMK?

 

[George Freeman]

I highly doubt it. Why change the magic formula?

[Jon Wiggett]

As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.

Turf?
Routing?
Tees?
Greens?
Bunkers?
etc...

What will Keiser do and was this part of the shootout won by DMK?

 

William,

why would a 'remote' golf resort make carts inevitable?

[Joey Chase]

As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.

If necessary, I think they could certainly make paths.  It wouldn't be their first course that had cartpaths designed into it.

[William_G]

As carts may be inevitable for many avid golfers to be able play multiple rounds at a remote "golf resort", will C&C design for carts.

Turf?
Routing?
Tees?
Greens?
Bunkers?
etc...

What will Keiser do and was this part of the shootout won by DMK?

 

William,

why would a 'remote' golf resort make carts inevitable?

$$$, selfishness of client, avid golfer, mature age of client, poor health of client, 36+ holes of golf needed for client to justify trip, client's friends are similar


cheers

[Jon Wiggett]

William,

so it is more to do with the client and not the remoteness of the site as you seemed to be saying in your first post.

[David_Elvins]

"Nae carts, Nae golf"

[Dan Moore]

I don't think so. 

[Greg Tallman]

I would swear I read an article that suggested Mike Keiser was leaning that way. He is, after all, a business first thinking man.

[William_G]

William,

so it is more to do with the client and not the remoteness of the site as you seemed to be saying in your first post.

hahaha

I have to say that the remoteness of the site is what makes it about the client, eg. the avid retail golfer

[William_G]

"Nae carts, Nae golf"

no doubt

[Tim Lewis]

When I talked to the VP of Oliphant Golf and guy who is running the project, he seemed to think that Mr. Keiser was still going back and forth on whether or not there will even be carts available. Even if there are carts available they will probably be limited, and it certainly won't effect the design of the courses, accept for maybe choice of turf.

[Jon Wiggett]

William,

so it is more to do with the client and not the remoteness of the site as you seemed to be saying in your first post.

hahaha

I have to say that the remoteness of the site is what makes it about the client, eg. the avid retail golfer

and they are more likely to use carts because...................

looking at Bandon you certainly seem to be right, or maybe not eh. Is Bandon not remote enough???

[Tom_Doak]

I don't understand the point of these threads that are 100% speculation.

Maybe if you changed the title to "Should" instead of "Will" it would make more sense.

[William_G]

I don't understand the point of these threads that are 100% speculation.

Maybe if you changed the title to "Should" instead of "Will" it would make more sense.

Interesting Tom.

Personally "should" implies control and judgment, so since I have no control in how Sand Valley is built/designed, "will" is the proper term to describe a topic question.

If you gong to have carts, design for it, as SS should have done.

I get your idea though, that pure speculation is not a good thing, but many things here have been beaten to death regarding a ill-defined and supposed profession called Golf Course Architecture 

[BCowan]

With Golf carts that have GPS that enable management to decide where carts go, why go with cart paths?  I guess you have to ask if you would rather have a few hard pan lies or cart paths?  I'd go for hard pan lies (less bounce).  If one asked the avg retail golfer with images side by side, would you rather have hard pan or cart paths, I wonder what the consensus would be.  Will electric trolleys be available? 

[Kevin_D]

I had the same reaction as Tom Doak - this is just idle speculation.  That said, you can look at what Keiser has said in public interviews and other articles to glean what he may be thinking.

It seems that Keiser is considering carts, but in a limited fashion.  A quick google search yielded the following responses:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-01-09/sports/ct-golf-sand-valley-spt-0110-20140110_1_kempersports-josh-lesnik-pacific-dunes

Unlike most Keiser properties, golf carts will be permitted. Like Sand Hills, Sand Valley is so remote that it would be difficult to find enough caddies for every player. Walking will be encouraged, though.

http://www.golftripper.com/a-conversation-with-mike-keiser/

GT: That seems like a logical thought process to me. A few minutes ago you touched on something that I’d like to go back to and that’s the use of carts at Sand Valley. Am I understanding correctly that there will be some cart play at Sand Valley?

MK:   At least limited, yes. As you know we have them at Bandon Dunes in a limited capacity as well. Sand Valley will not have a huge fleet out front where visitors pull up. Visitors will not just say “Oh we can take a cart”. They will have to make a case for it.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/smooth-sailing-for-sand-valley-golf-project-b99315586z1-268208202.html

As for the first of what could eventually be three or four courses at Sand Valley, Keiser said he was leaning toward fescue fairways, similar to those at Whistling Straits and Erin Hills.

That would make Sand Valley a walking-only course, because fescue does not tolerate motorized carts.

"We're leaning to fescue, and in the next two months we'll look at some options," Keiser said. "We'll hash it out. There will be 10 voters and I will be the judge. As of right now it will be walking only, caddies encouraged. But that could change."

I doubt we will get a definitive answer until it opens in 2017 - and even then, Keiser could always change his mind.  I believe Streamsong allowed carts at all times initially, and now has some restriction based on time of day and season.

[Phil McDade]

Some thoughts:

-- While Sand Valley may be "remote," compared to the likes of Whistling Straits, it's not anywhere nearly as remote as Sand Hills, which is quite literally in the middle of nowhere, and far, far removed from any major metro area. Sand Valley is a moderate day's drive from 3 large urban areas, and given the state of the local, local economy in the Town of Rome and Adams County, I wouldn't be surprised if caddying might prove to be a decent option for local employment.

-- I wonder if the constrained nature of the golf season in central Wisconsin may play a role in the cart decision. This is no year-round place like Bandon -- the season is May to October, with some hot and muggy summer stretches, and the first and last two weeks of that season can be quite iffy. Carts are often viewed as a no-risk money-maker for golf courses; will the reduced golf schedule at Sand Valley lead to carts being an economic decision for the course(s)?

[John Kavanaugh]

I just spent two days at a world class golf resort and spent as much on caddies as I did golf. I don't see the human caddie model working that far in the future.  This course will only be 5 years old in 2022. I'm sure contingency plans are being considered.

[Peter Pallotta]

Phil - your post reminded me of some dialouge from 'Inherit the Wind', with Spencer Tracy as a Clarence Darrow type:

"Gentlemen, progress has never been a bargain. You have to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man behind a counter who says:
'You can have a telephone -- but you lose privacy, and the charm of distance. Madam, you may vote, but at a price -- you lose the right to retreat behind the powder puff or your petticoat. Mister, you may conquer the air -- but the birds will lose their wonder,
and the clouds will smell of gasoline."

JK - I'd like to hear more about your trip, e.g. where, how was the golf etc. (Snowbound Canadian happy to hear about anyone playing golf.) Also: if and when a golfer like you starts passing on taking a caddie, the 'model' will surely be irrevocably broken.

[William_G]

P

love that quote! Thank you

[Bill_McBride]

I just spent two days at a world class golf resort and spent as much on caddies as I did golf. I don't see the human caddie model working that far in the future.  This course will only be 5 years old in 2022. I'm sure contingency plans are being considered.

You were at Streamsong or Bandon?   Please tell all. 

[Colin Macqueen]

Bill,

On another thread JK stipulated

"I just played 36 at Pinehurst #2 and would prefer a weekend at Rustic."

But his story would still be enthralling!

Cheers Colin

[Duncan Cheslett]

Unlike most Keiser properties, golf carts will be permitted. Like Sand Hills, Sand Valley is so remote that it would be difficult to find enough caddies for every player. Walking will be encouraged, though.



I'm struggling to get my head around the logic that says " If there aren't enough caddies to go round, players will need carts."

The rest of the world manages just fine without either. We use trolleys. Electrically powered trolleys.


GT:  A few minutes ago you touched on something that I’d like to go back to and that’s the use of carts at Sand Valley. Am I understanding correctly that there will be some cart play at Sand Valley?

MK:   At least limited, yes. As you know we have them at Bandon Dunes in a limited capacity as well. Sand Valley will not have a huge fleet out front where visitors pull up. Visitors will not just say “Oh we can take a cart”. They will have to make a case for it.



It sounds to me that Mr Keiser has exactly the right attitude to golf carts. They are available to those who need them , but not offered on a general basis.

[Adam Lawrence]

Duncan - I'm not sure I agree with your point about the rest of the world. I think there's a decent case for arguing that we in the UK - or at least in northern Europe - are the anomaly if you look at golf around the world. Lots of carts in most emerging markets, and in others (Thailand) you have a strong caddie culture, because labour is cheap. Even Brits mostly ride when they go to Spain or Portugal to play. Walk and carry, or walk and pull a trolley is increasingly the exception, not the rule. It's the American model of golf that is spreading around the world, which is, imo, one of the reasons it isn't growing faster.