Holes That Are Just Too Hard

[Garland Bayley]

That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?

430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.

I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Stereotypes, stereotypes, stereotypes. There are bazillions of golfers with handicaps over 30 that have no problem with that carry.

I shudder to think how short hitting single digit handicap golfers play that how without putting down cartpaths...

[John McCarthy]

What if these too hard holes are the inverse of the driveable par 4s?  My example, Butler 10.  Hit a 7 iron off the tee, be well short of the hazards on both sides.  The hole is about 380.  Then hit an 8.  Then hit a wedge. 

Is it really an easy par 5 in disguise?

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

From noted or otherwise esteemed courses...?

Fisher's Biarritz #5 - Terrifying on it's own... mishit, pull, push, slice or hook and triple 6 is the number...put a bit of Atlantic sound wind in there and you've got a ballgame.

Yale #18 - I like the uniqueness of the hole, and if you do make it through the first two shots, you probably can settle on bogey 6 in most cases, but if you don't...

Bethpage B 15 - with the OB right and the rough left...along with the severity of the green and the uphill...it's just too much for most...then again, I watched Daly go in with a lazy PW in 2002 (played 459 that day)...I've only hit the green with a 3 iron or 4 wood in like a dozen playings.

cheers

vk

[J_ Crisham]

18 at Butler
9 at Butler
10 at Butler
5 at Butler
2 at Chicago Golf
17 at Beverly
14 at OFCC North
13 at Medinah 3
8 at Prairie Dunes
18 Whistling Straits
11 at Plainfield
1 at Crystal Downs
10 at Crystal Downs

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much of a pass fail is #14 really? It's essentially an island...but the island is much larger than just the green. You really have to work to get to 6 on this hole...hit one in the water and you drop it 75 yards away and wedge it on two putt for double!?! One decent shot and you make 3 or 4.

The fact that Pine Valley had to inject a "drop area" is indicative of how hard the 14th hole is.
I believe it's the only drop area on the golf course.

In 50 years of playing Pine Valley I've never used the drop area despite hitting many balls into the water.

Drop areas are for those who surrender themselves to the difficulty of the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim

I've never played or seen Pine Valley, but from what I know, all the 14th requires from the back tees is to be able to carry ~200 yards over water, fairly straight, and then (if you miss the green, which 95+% of all golfers, including Mucci, will do most of the time) hit a decent sand wedge from the fronting and surrounding bunker and then get a 3 or 4 or 5, depending on how well you are wedging and putting on the day. 

That sounds like a hard hole, but not in any way "too" hard.

That's because there is NO fronting bunker.
That's a beach, that's moist most of the time.

As to the back bunker, which is about 240 from the back tee, few rarely get the ball back that far and if they do, that bunker is incredibly narrow with the golfer hitting back toward the fronting water.

If you ever get the chance to play PV and you play from the back tee, the betting window will be open for 5's, 6's, 7's, 8's and higher, provided you don't concede defeat and use the drop area.

I think experience will trump conjecture.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

You know Pine Valley better than I do, but regarding #14 my assumption always was you better hit the green or real bad things can happen.  Maybe that is just not as obvious as a pure island green.

J chi sham,

Curious why you think #10 at Crystal Downs is too hard. Is it all about the green?

[Jon Cavalier]

I know that the objective is to look at individual holes, but I do really feel like context matters here. Take the par-3 3rd at Myopia. Brutally long in the neighborhood of 260. Small green, especially relative to its length. Long is dead. Right is likely dead. Left is bunkered. And short is in the deep crossbunker, making the carry over 200 yards. Tough, tough hole. Birdie is virtually impossible without chipping in or making a long putt. Par is difficult. Bogey isn't guaranteed. And others are very much in play.

Too hard? Arguably, but it didn't feel that way after playing the short par 4 1st and the short par 5 second. Rather, it felt fair. But put that same hole at the end of a stretch of 470 yard par 4s and 600 yard par 5s and maybe it feels a little different.

[Brad Tufts]

That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?

430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.

I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Stereotypes, stereotypes, stereotypes. There are bazillions of golfers with handicaps over 30 that have no problem with that carry.

I shudder to think how short hitting single digit handicap golfers play that how without putting down cartpaths...

Fine, I should have added "without losing a ball."  Or, "without having better than a 1/4 chance of pulling off the shot."

I didn't know the 20-handicap was a protected class!

[Tim_Weiman]

Brad,

I didn't know the 20 handicap was a protected class either. But, it does feel like the definition of "too hard" has to address handicap somehow. Equally, I think there has to be a cut off at some point. #17 at the TPC is "too hard" for the 36 guy, but given its length and the size of the green, I would not say it is "too hard" overall.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You know Pine Valley better than I do, but regarding #14 my assumption always was you better hit the green or real bad things can happen. 

I had a "Tin Cup" experience there a few years ago when I walked off the 13th green 1 under and walked of the 14th green 9 or 10 over.
And, I didn't hit that many bad shots, just marginal shots that didn't end up well.

The following year, I walked off # 13 1 under and was lucky to walk off # 14 only 1 over.

And the further back you go, the higher the tee and the more exposure to the wind.

Maybe that is just not as obvious as a pure island green.

J chi sham,

Curious why you think #10 at Crystal Downs is too hard. Is it all about the green?

Never played it.

I'm waiting for my invite from Tom Doak

[Matthew Sander]

Jack C and Mark C,

I have to respectfully disagree with your inclusions of the 17th holes at Beverly and Flossmoor. Difficult holes for sure, but TOO hard? Just my opinion, but "too hard" holes are holes where doubles (or higher) or the pocket are relatively commonplace for anyone - OR - there is an aspect of the hole that renders it borderline unplayable.

Let's start with Beverly's 17th. The length, wind exposure, pitch and slope of the green, and flag high or long recoveries provide plenty of difficulty. All provide more than adequate challenge, but none of the above should cause you to completely butcher the hole or not finish. There is also a very conservative approach to the hole in playing your tee shot short or short left of the green which leaves a reasonable opportunity for par and a likely bogey, provided you don't blast your pitch 15 ft. above the hole. Very hard par 3, yes...too hard, not from my POV.

Now, Flossmoor's 17th. Very stout par 4, but by lowering expectations and playing it as a 4.5 or 5 it is certainly manageable. There are no lost ball opportunities. There is the creek crossing the fairway, but that should be easily negotiated unless the hole is playing into the wind and the tee shot is a complete foozle (thank you, Sir Bob Huntley). I grant you, the long approach shot, staring at that near vertical hill is uber-intimidating. However, if you don't make it up you are left with a wedge of some sort to one of the tamer greens on the course. Actually, if you've hit a good drive, and the wind conditions aren't horrid, it could be a wise play to take the slope out of the equation and play well over the green. There is plenty of room and the resulting pitch would be very straight forward. As previously stated, once on or around the green it is one of the least challenging on the course. Personally, I struggle more with the 12th hole, but that is due in large part to the occasional loose tee shot. On 17, you can hit your drive almost anywhere and still have a reasonable chance at a 5. Very, very hard par 4...too hard, not from my POV

Obviously, if I am fortunate enough to play either of these courses again I will skip the 17th holes as karma surely has a bloodbath in store for moi...

[V. Kmetz]

Hi,

TW, I agree to an extent, but under the terms of Pat's basic definition, it fits most golfers...AND I see the best players in the world make 5s as much as birdies every year.

Their "tournament" pressure is my "normal game" when confronted with a hole like that... I'm glad it's been done; it probably could be repeated a bit more often with a lot of amusement for all sorts of golfers, but if golf continued in that way, I probably wouldn't have played any new courses in the last 35 years...and/or given it up altogether.

Let me be even more strident...there's just a handful of female club golfer with a ladies hcp of 12 or higher who could actually finish that hole, even if their life depended on it...even if the ladies tee is like 80 yards, there's a great many such female golfers who would be hitting a rescue, utility or 5-wood from even that generous of a forward tee.

so if TOO hard extends to all the female golfing population too, that is like the hardest hole in america.

cheers

vk

[Tim_Weiman]

VK,

Are you referring to #15 at Canterbury?

[V. Kmetz]

Hi TW,

No, 17 at Sawgrass... I'm not familiar with Canterbury...

cheers

vk

[J_ Crisham]

Jack C and Mark C,

I have to respectfully disagree with your inclusions of the 17th holes at Beverly and Flossmoor. Difficult holes for sure, but TOO hard? Just my opinion, but "too hard" holes are holes where doubles (or higher) or the pocket are real possibilities for anyone.

Let's start with Beverly's 17th. The length, wind exposure, pitch and slope of the green, and flag high or long recoveries provide plenty of difficulty. All provide more than adequate challenge, but none of the above should cause you to completely butcher the hole or not finish. There is also a very conservative approach to the hole in playing your tee shot short or short left of the green which leaves a reasonable opportunity for par and a likely bogey, provided you don't blast your pitch 15 ft. above the hole. Very hard par 3, yes...too hard, not from my POV.

Now, Flossmoor's 17th. Very stout par 4, but by lowering expectations and playing it as a 4.5 or 5 it is certainly manageable. There are no lost ball opportunities. There is the creek crossing the fairway, but that should be easily negotiated unless the hole is playing into the wind and the tee shot is a complete foozle (thank you, Sir Bob Huntley). I grant you, the long approach shot, staring at that near vertical hill is uber-intimidating. However, if you don't make it up you are left with a wedge of some sort to one of the tamer greens on the course. Actually, if you've hit a good drive, and the wind conditions aren't horrid, it could be a wise play to take the slope out of the equation and play well over the green. There is plenty of room and the resulting pitch would be very straight forward. As previously stated, once on or around the green it is one of the least challenging on the course. Personally, I struggle more with the 12th hole, but that is due in large part to the occasional loose tee shot. On 17, you can hit your drive almost anywhere and still have a reasonable chance at a 5. Very, very hard par 4...too hard, not from my POV

Obviously, if I am fortunate enough to play either of these courses again I will skip the 17th holes as karma surely has a bloodbath in store for moi...

Matt, I have witnessed too many 4 putts at Beverly on 17.  Some during the Western Am this past August. The severity of the green was not designed for current green speeds. I can count on one hand the number of tee shots that hit and hold the green each summer- especially from the right tee box at 227 yds. No doubt there are harder holes out there but for me it's the hardest on the course relative to par. Not sure if I've ever birdied it since my first round there in 1977. A par there this year might have produced a different Western Am champ, instead it was ball in pocket , game over double bogey. Can't think of a harder par 3 in Chicago without water.

[David Davis]

Keeping it close to home again.

#2 at Noordwijkse from the back tees.

547M (598 yds) - drive from high in the dunes into a cross wind, often very hard to a narrowish landing zone. Extremely tough drive. 2nd shot will be hybrid or 3 wood uphill to a narrow fairway in-between dunes. Leaving it short of the plateau which is often the case leaves a long blind approach into a tricky narrow raised two tiered green with trouble around it. In the summer when the rough is high and the wind is up one of the toughest holes I've ever played. Playing it safe for bogey even requires exacting shots as you have to hit the fairway off the tee. Even if you for example hit a 3 wood off the tee and then two irons to get up to the plateau you still have a tough shot with anywhere from a w-7 into the wind into the green. Just no easy way to do it but you could also argue if your not a solid 5 hcp or lower you have no logical explanation for being on those tees.

#4 at Noordwijkse from the back tees.

If you survive #2, your reprieve is not long lasting as you reach the start of our Amen Corner. The #1 most difficult hole is the 4th.

423m (462 yds) uphill all the way to a severely raised green. Great for the long hitting masochists in the group. Don't forget the wind. The drive is one of the toughest you will find I'm afraid. it requires a straight and long shot with a very controlled ball flight in the wind. Right is trees and rough, left is lost. There is a bail out plateau over the trees to the right but this requires about a 250 meter carry to reach.

A good drive leaves a pretty steep uphill approach into a small green but there is a big of a backstop. The problem is if you are already hitting a 3 wood or hybrid in and need a perfect shot to get there it's not that easy to club up and play it safe and a bit long.

I think these holes are great for the long hitting + hcp'ers and would score high in the "resistance to scoring" category but are too hard for the average semi long hitting 5 hcp'er to be honest.

These holes are both pretty playable from the yellow tees but still require excellent shot making for single hcp'ers.

#18 at Noordwijkse from the back tees.

[Jeff Tang]

I thought 18 at Carnoustie was crazy hard. Long, tough drive, OB left, water right, then water fronting the green again. Plus the added pressure of trying to not make 7 like van de Velde did and it's a recipe for disaster, which it was for me.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I am someone who is getting worse. My handicap was revised at the end of last season from 22 to 24. Fortunately, most golf courses which have holes which I would deem too hard wouldn't accept me as a visitor. They have handicap limits. Good for them! It keeps the rubbish out! (Although that was not my observation last time my wife and I walked round TOC - there were some fine players out there, but there were also quite a number who clearly had fantasy handicaps).

Just for the record, when I played the 18th at Yale I got a 5 on the 18th. It was the 17 holes before that that broke my back. I loved it, though. 

[Brad Tufts]

Brad,

I didn't know the 20 handicap was a protected class either. But, it does feel like the definition of "too hard" has to address handicap somehow. Equally, I think there has to be a cut off at some point. #17 at the TPC is "too hard" for the 36 guy, but given its length and the size of the green, I would not say it is "too hard" overall.

Good points...I used hyperbole, but it was taken to the nth degree...I'm sure the Princeville hole has a way for the higher marker to get within 100, or 150 without getting wet...I haven't been there in 10+ years...

[Brian Colbert]

5 holes at Butler have been mentioned but not one of them has been the hole that I consider to be the hardest in my ~75 rounds there over the past couple years. 8 from the back tee is probably the hardest par 3 I have ever seen. From 220 off the back tee, it has a similar feel to #2 at Isleworth. One of the features that makes it the most difficult is the overhanging tree on the right side of the creek, which, as a lifelong drawer of the golf ball, keeps me awake at night. I can't even count how many times I have been under par walking off the 6th green and still struggled to break 40 on the front 9. 7-8-9-10 is one of the most difficult stretches of holes I have played, and I think 8 is the cornerstone.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I am surprised there are not more horror stories about five at Merion. I have seen some huge numbers hacked up on that hole. In my opinion it can be a round  killer the  same as fourteen at PV.

Water down the entire left side and that evil green, you guys must be pretty damn good players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am surprised there are not more horror stories about five at Merion. I have seen some huge numbers hacked up on that hole. In my opinion it can be a round  killer the  same as fourteen at PV.


Ed,

You can "bail" on your tee shot and second shot at # 5 at Merion.

There is no "bail" at # 14 at PV.


Water down the entire left side and that evil green, you guys must be pretty damn good players.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Well my good man I have only played PV five times, three pars and two bogeys on that hole.
I have birdied every hole at Merion except for five.

Must be in my head, maybe it's later in the round  and I am thinking more clearly by then .

[Jon Wiggett]

The 18th on the Fream course at Nordcenter, Finland back in the 90's played as a 440m par 4. Up quite a hill all the way. OOB tight left and bunkered on both sides of the slip of a fairway. The strongly undulating green was semi-blind with deep bunkers in front and bare rock behind. In over 50 plays I don't think I got any closer than 50m from it in two and made par maybe half a dozen times.

The course was certainly spectacular with many good holes but an absolute brute from the back tees. When I was there in the early 90's the par was 72 with a course record of 76. Not seen any discussions about it on here.

Jon