[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark

Re Ganton actually I am unsure why Sean has it so high and particularly why he has it higher than his - ahem, formerly - beloved beau Beau Desert, given his (and Sheehy's) lambasting given it. His earlier comments on Ganton give absolutely no indication of its positioning. I recall comments that did address his 'ranking orientated' opinion as along the lines of, I don't see it as great but others seem to think it special, so let me put it in the top shelf of courses.

All of which goes to show, it's Sean's list and therefore all we can attack is his taste. We're it otherwise I would note the lunacy of placing on equal footing St George's Hill and Walton Heath New.

Importantly, Royal North Devon will appear nowhere on his long list. Otherwise it would be my belief system thrown into existential question and perhaps despair.

[Sean_A]

Mark

You wildly miscontrue both mine and Sheehy's comments concerning Ganton.  We both said the design is very good, but too narrow.  If I recall, an aerial look at the course revealed some very narrow (and much narrowed over the years) fairways with unnecessary junk lining the edges ...hence justifying our completely reasonable PoV.  To top it off, we had blinder conditions with some of the best f&f fairways I have ever seen.  What a shame the course can't support such fine conditions.  Still, compared to other champ venues, Ganton isn't at all unusual and I think it is a better design than most.

LIST CONTINUED

7.   Ballybunion
8.   St Enodoc
9.   Sandwich
10.   Rye
11.   Alwoodley
12.   Co Down
13.   Renaissance
14.   Walton Heath Old


Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

Okay, we'll go in that direction; if Ganton were to widen, roughly what position would it rise to?

[Sean_A]

Sean

Okay, we'll go in that direction; if Ganton were to widen, roughly what position would it rise to?

Why not cross that bridge when its built? 

Sheehy???

Ciao

[David Davis]

David

Walton Heath New is a bit of fresh air.  The start is certainly not very good, but what I like most of all is the width and earthworks...its a ton wider than the Old.  I just wish Fowler's original intent was still going.  A load of the earthworks are now in the rough and some centreline bunkers are gone.  One can really imagine how guys would have tacked around these features before the long ball.  I think it is worth restoring the course to Fowler's vision...there would probaby be a few areas of combined fairways.  The New is certainly one of the more interesting designs I have come across.  

I could care less about the number of holes so the Sacred 9 is always going to feature high on any list of mine.  The course is far too clever and well put together to toss aside because one doesn't like the number of holes.  Its rare that I play an 18 holer and don't think at least a few holes couldn't be dropped...to better overall effect.  I sometimes wish 14 or 15 holes was the established round.  Wheoever invented 18 holes should be shot  

DD: I guess I just prefer the old adage - 9 holes is like sex without an orgasm. Yes you can play it twice but that's like staying in the same position all day long ;-). we will agree to different opinions here but at the end of the day my only excuse is that's the way someone invented it once and if it were only 14 holes and that's all I ever knew then that would be fine I'm sure. Might be hard for me to think out of this box I guess. At home I have to drive 40 minutes to get to Noordwijkse, I won't do it if I can only play 9 holes. Never have and never will intentionally.

As for the course, I agree it's an example of excellent architecture given what I'd call a bland property. I didn't tire at all from playing it over and over. It's just even given this excellent architecture let's face it it's a "C" site at best in my opinion so even that being the case I just can't put it above an A+ site with B+ architecture and 18 holes.


If Woking was firmer turf, I woud have rated it higher    A lot of what ifs that will never come to pass.

DD: Ah, well this means the quality of the turf during your play has a heaving affect. That's interesting, I know we played Pennard on the same day last year, how is that so high for you given the horrendous turf? Or I assume it would be in your top 20 if the turf was superior?  

I know what you mean about Sunny New.  I am not a fan of the start or finish, but jeepers there are some holes that the Old can't touch.  From 4 to 14 the course is brilliant. 

DD: We definitely agree on this. Certainly some outstanding holes in that stretch. 4-8 are awesome. I thought 9 given a blind shot, in seeing it the first time had too tight a landing area with the heather on the left side of the fairway over the hill. I might feel different if I saw it again knowing how to play it.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I understand that Ganton gets marked down for being narrower than it should be.  By extension, then, Renaissance Club, with its fairways halved in width will also get marked down.

Oh.......

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I understand that Ganton gets marked down for being narrower than it should be.  By extension, then, Renaissance Club, with its fairways halved in width will also get marked down.

Oh.......

Mark

R is marked down, but I think its a brilliant design.  No question for me its the best modern course I have seen in GB&I and it would make top 10 if it were wider.  Its interesting that both Ganton and R move around their properties very well.  R has the much added benefit of several starting points near the house...superb that is. I also really enjoy the links come heathland design...reminds me of Formby in that way. 

Ciao  

[Greg Taylor]

Sean, you asked for opinions at the start of this thread... well... you are in the highest echelon when it comes to GCA, but seriously, putting the Renaissance next to RCD on any list has to raise eye brows.

The front 9 at RCD is a candidate for the best 9 holes in the world... I can't see how The Renaissance can be compared, good though it is. They are tiers apart.

Just my opinion!

[Sean_A]

The front 9 at RCD is a candidate for the best 9 holes in the world...

What about the back 9? 

1) I will tell ya, greens are important to me and this is where a great many GB&I classics are lacking and R excells.   2)Other than the unfortunate finish, 3) RCD's blind shots are very annoying because of the recipe for lost balls. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

7.   Ballybunion- Sounds about right.  There's the highlights and the subtle pleasures, like the 6th.
8.   St Enodoc-  Added to my must play list
9.   Sandwich
10.   Rye- Already on my must play list.
11.   Alwoodley
12.   Co Down- Also sounds about right.  Agree with the lost ball comment. 
13.   Renaissance- Was keen on seeing it.  Now that they're intent on being a Championship track- not so much...
14.   Walton Heath Old
15.   St Georges Hill
16.   The Island-  Still surprised to see this above nearby Portmarnock.  Need to get back here to confirm what the fuss is about.
17.   Formby
18.   Cruden Bay-  Need to get here before they cock it up...
19.   Royal Aberdeen
20.   Dornoch
21.   Walton Heath New
22.   Portrush
23.   Swinley Forest
24.   Portstewart
25.   Muirfield-  Big name.  Little interest...
26.   Birkdale
27.   Portmarnock- No love?  You unsentimental old fool...
28.   Sunny New
29.   Co Sligo
30.   Woking
31.   Ganton
32.   Sacred 9- Perhaps behind only North Berwick on my To Do list.
33.   Hoylake
34.   Trump Aberdeen- Hard to imagine it ahead of Carnoustie, but I'll have to take your word on it as I'm unlikely to pony up to find out.
35.   Little Aston
36.   Pennard- You've personally put this on my To Do list.  Sounds exactly like my cup of tea.
37.   Saunton East
38.   Enniscrone
39.   Burnham & Berrow
40.   Brancaster
41.   Porthcawl
42.   Worplesdon
43.   Princes
44.   Hunstanton
45.   Turnberry- Glad to see we're in agreement here.  I now think playing it in crap weather was a good thing.  Easier to wonder what all the fuss is about when the Photo op isn't available.
46.   Carnoustie- Perhaps a tad low?  Not a warm and fuzzy place but a surprisingly playable Championship layout.
47.   Castle Course
48.   Beau Desert
49.   Notts
50.   Troon
51.   Lytham
52.   Kington
53.   Carne
54.   Woodhall Spa
55.   West Hill
56.   Edgbaston
57.   Northamptonshire Co
58.   New Zealand
59.   Perranporth
60.   St Andrews New
61.   Southerndown
62.   Saunton West
63.   Addington
64.   Bearwood Lakes
65.   Brora
66.   Silloth on Solway
67.   Machrihanish
68.   Huntercombe
69.   Wallasey
70.   Liphook
71.   Broadstone
72.   Castletown
73.   Aberdovey
74.   Rosapenna OTM
75.   Donegal
76.   Gullane #1
77.   Sherwood Forest
78.   Prestbury
79.   Nairn
80.   Dunbar
81.   Stoneham
82.   Knole Park
83.   Co Louth- Seems too low IMO.
84.   TEC- Yup
85.   Whittington Heath
86.   The Grove
87.   Narin & Portnoo
88.   Cavendish
89.   Tralee
90.   Cumberwell Park Orange
91.   Tenby
92.   Portrush Valley
93.   Carnoustie Burnside- Sorry I missed this one when I was next door.
94.   Harlech
95.   Blackwell
96.   Reddish Vale
97.   Trevose
98.   Murcar
99.   Portmarnock Links
100.   Harborne

[Bart Bradley]

Sean:

What does Dornoch lack for you?  Great par 3s.  Excellent greens.  Challenging.  A lovely walk.  SO GOOD. ?

I think Co. Down is the best tee shot course in the world.  I agree that it finishes with a couple of weaker holes.  But, great setting, great walk.   I can't say I have ever played a course with more exhilarating tee shots.  Not buying that lost balls are that much of a problem.  There is quite ample width on the holes that are blind.  I would agree that the green contours themselves are not too exciting. 

I love Alwoodley but couldn't manage to put it ahead of Dornoch in my wildest dreams.  Glad to see you give it some props though.  Ditto on The Island.

Still struggling with how low you place Turnberry, Carnoustie, Birkdale, Troon and Portmarnock (are you turned off by their reputation/fame?  Or the price?)  Have you been to Birkdale or Troon lately?

Bart

[Sean_A]

Bart

What does Dornoch lack for you?  Great par 3s.  Excellent greens.  Challenging.  A lovely walk.  SO GOOD. ?

Dornoch isn't lacking (although I am not keen on 7-10), its in very high company and being as high as 13 is pretty damn good, no?  I will be there in the spring for another go, we'll see how it goes.

I think Co. Down is the best tee shot course in the world.  I agree that it finishes with a couple of weaker holes.  But, great setting, great walk.   I can't say I have ever played a course with more exhilarating tee shots.  Not buying that lost balls are that much of a problem.  

I played with a 17 capper...he lost 19 balls and the shots weren't that loose.  Maybe the course is wider now?

Still struggling with how low you place Turnberry, Carnoustie, Birkdale, Troon and Portmarnock (are you turned off by their reputation/fame?  Or the price?)  Have you been to Birkdale or Troon lately?

Money wasn't a consideration.  I talked about Turnberry...way over-rated imo.  Carnasty...to be fair, I haven't played since the reno and I think the work looks good.  Still, I don't have much interest in a revisit unless its a cheap deal.  The front 9 of Troon is largely missable and the back nine is charmless if difficult. I don't see what makes this great...no interest in returning.  I like Birkdale, but its a fairly sterile design with any quirk long since designed out. In fact, none of these courses has enough quirk to balance out the difficulty factor the way Sandwich does. They are too one dimensional to be really great courses. I am not sure what your deal is with Portmarnock.  I have it at 27 and wouldn't bat an eyelash to see it as high as 15. Thats pretty darn high if you ask me.

Ciao

[Greg Taylor]

I think Co. Down is the best tee shot course in the world.  I agree that it finishes with a couple of weaker holes.  But, great setting, great walk.   I can't say I have ever played a course with more exhilarating tee shots.  Not buying that lost balls are that much of a problem.  

I played with a 17 capper...he lost 19 balls and the shots weren't that loose.  Maybe the course is wider now?

19 balls...!?!

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I know they are very different courses, but I'd like to hear your justification for putting County Louth hand in hand with TEC.  I'd have the former significantly higher and the latter possibly even lower although I have an admittedly limited sample size.

[Mark Pavy]

Six to go.....here's a stab in the dark...in no particular order- TOC, Waterville, Nth Berwick, Prestwick, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.

[jeffwarne]

Six to go.....here's a stab in the dark...in no particular order- TOC, Waterville, Nth Berwick, Prestwick, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.

my guesses

6.Deal
5.Sunningdale Old
4.Prestwick
3.North Berwick
2.Lahinch
1.TOC

If nothing else I posted these so that if they match he'll at least have to change them

My revenge for no Portsalon
but a very impressive list nonetheless

[Rich Goodale]

Carnac tells me that the following are soon to be revealed:

6.  Painswick
5.  Forfar
4.  Burnham
3.  Berrow
2.  Royal Wimbledon
1.  Sunningdale Putting Green

Fits in with the rest, but Carnac might just be be wrong.....

[Eric Smith]

Carnac tells me that the following are soon to be revealed:

6.  Painswick
5.  Forfar
4.  Burnham
3.  Berrow
2.  Royal Wimbledon
1.  Sunningdale Putting Green

Fits in with the rest, but Carnac might just be be wrong.....

I don't understand what this means but it made me laugh out loud! Rich you really are one of a kind.

[Sean_A]

I think Co. Down is the best tee shot course in the world.  I agree that it finishes with a couple of weaker holes.  But, great setting, great walk.   I can't say I have ever played a course with more exhilarating tee shots.  Not buying that lost balls are that much of a problem.  

I played with a 17 capper...he lost 19 balls and the shots weren't that loose.  Maybe the course is wider now?

19 balls...!?!

Ooops...9 balls.  I was very turned off

Eric...yes, Rihc is a one of a kind all right  

Jud

To be honest, I wasn't overly impressed with TEC or Co Louth, but I would like to go back to Baltray since many people rave about it.  I was very turned off by the flat holes.  

List Continued

1.   North Berwick
2.   Deal
3.   Lahinch
4.   TOC
5.   Prestwick
6.   Sunny Old

Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

Fascinated to think what the remaining 14 might be. I can think of a few:

TOC
RCD
St. Enodoc
North Berwick
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Sunningdale old
Royal St. George's
Rye
Deal
Walton Heath old
West Sussex

Not sure about the other 2. I think Sean still has a surprise or two up his sleeve for the final 14. Looking forward to it.

Brian,

Dornoch, Pennard and Enniscrone are all gone.

Sunningdale New is one. Alwoodley another. And Renaissance Club the final one. West Sussex won't be there because I don't think Sean has seen it.

The above on the assumption he hasn't seen Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart either. Otherwise he's made a mistake.

OK. West Sussex out. Sunny New is already in. So I'm going for Alwoodley, Renaissance Club, and Prestwick as the final 3. I'm sure Sean has a prize for the first person to guess the last 14 correctly.

All 14 correct! I win the prize - surely a free round at every one of the top 100?

[Stewart Abramson]

SA
I’ve always appreciated your insight on courses and this was an interesting exercise to follow. I’ve only played 21 courses on your list and don’t have any beef with where those fall on your list. However, assuming that you’ve played them, it seems like you’re not a big fan of many of the courses in Scotland that I like, the East Neuck in particular. Lundin, Leven, Crail, Elie and Kingsbarns are absent, and I’m surprised you instead have the Castle Course fairly high on your list. Gleneagles Kings and Western Gailes are also missing. I like Dunbar and Burnside, which you include, but don’t think I’d have them on my list to the exclusion of the Kings or WG. I’m also a fan of the Surrey/Berks courses that you’ve included, but the exclusion of the two courses at the Berkshire is curious to me.  Were green fees a  factor in your choices? Did you have any particular criteria that you used to decide on your groupings (e.g. routing, walkability, variety, bunkering, greens etc)  or was it  a “gut” ranking of overall architectural quality (whatever that might mean)?

I’m glad that your list shows a lot of love for the top half of Ireland. I’m planning my first trip there, and you included more than a dozen that I want to see. If Portmarnock Links, Portrush Valley, Nairn & Portnoo, Donegal and Rosapenna (not to mention Carne, Enniscrone and the obvious choices) are all as enjoyable as the courses in Scotland mentioned above that didn’t make your cut, it will be an amazing trip.

SA

[jeffwarne]

Sean,
Thanks for a fantastic list.
There are very few if any who could develop such a comprehensive list, and I say that because not only have you seen far more Gb&I courses than are on the list, but also because you have seen many of these courses multiple times.
It could be argued that your list is a bit Anglocentric, but the counter to that would be that there are SOOO many great courses in England, and few have even come close to the diverse group you have covered.
I have played over 120 different courses and could in no way come up with a top 100 due to my glaring weaknesses in multiple regions of England.

I'd be curious to know what courses readers of this forum would feel may have been left out.
One has to have a very deep list of UK/Ireland courses played to leave out a course such as Portsalon and Waterville.
For example my list wouldn't include TEC or Sunningdale Old simply because I haven't played them.

Noteable well known ommissions
I happen to have a soft spot for Waterville but I can see the quibbles with it by many on this board though I actually like the Fazio redo as well.(didn't want to like the redo)

What do you feel is lacking at Portsalon ?
(as you know one of my favorites, though admittedly a minority opinion)
that puts it below say OTM Rosapenna, which I find a more architecturally disjointed mess each time I play it-my history-1997-2011 (though I still love what's left of the now back nine despite disfiguring the old first and second holes of that nine-assuming one doesn't puke walking past the awful clubhouse on the awkward ugly HIKE to 10)
Maybe it just kills me so much to see a charming course get worse(maybe the wrong word-confusing I guess) that I can't be objective (check that-- I can't ever be objective)

I will say The Island the last time I played there had gone the way of Portrush with its narrowing and wild rough-I'm assuming you haven't played The Island lately.(my original play years ago found it much more playable)
Surprised to see you rate it that high if you played it recently.
To be fair, on my most recent play I was playing it  an Open qualifier so perhaps they spent the spring amping up for that.

Thanks again,
great list

[Sean_A]

Stuart

some of the courses you mention I haven't played I played them too long ago to remember much.  Crail, Leven and Lundin just failed to make the list...so you guessed it, not a huge fan of these.

Jeff

I haven't seen the new Waterville and to be honest, I don't have much desire to.  

I really dislike most of the front 9 at P'salon; some of the holes are narrow as hell.  But I would go back.  Some of my favourite courses didn't make the top 100.

LIST CONTINUED

1.   North Berwick
2.   Deal
3.   Lahinch
4.   TOC
5.   Prestwick
6.   Sunny Old




Other Courses Considered

Camberley Heath
Hindhead
Hockley
Hayling Island
Ballybunion Cashen
West Lancs
Portsalon
Delamere Forest
RND
Hillside
Royal Ashdown Forest
Seacroft
Littlestone

There must be a few more, but I forget them.  

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Stuart

some of the courses you mention I haven't played I played them too long ago to remember much.  Crail, Leven and Lundin just failed to make the list...so you guessed it, not a huge fan of these.

Jeff

I haven't seen the new Waterville and to be honest, I don't have much desire to. 

I really dislike most of the front 9 at P'salon; some of the holes are narrow as hell.  But I would go back.  Some of my favourite courses didn't make the top 100.

Other Courses Considered

Camberley Heath
Hindhead
Hockley
Hayling Island
Ballybunion Cashen
West Lancs
Portsalon
Delamere Forest
RND
Hillside
Royal Ashdown Forest
Seacroft
Littlestone

There must be a few more, but I forget them. 

Ciao

Thanks Sean,
Portsalon more narrow than The Island???
As you know I'm no laser with the driver but I hit way more drivers at Portsalon than The Island (and was playing The Island from the crazy tees)
Their famous narrow hole 14 looked like all the others, but at least you could drop if you hit in the hazard on 14!
I do like The Island though, just would like to see some width restored.

Thanks for the list of others considered-useful as there are some good ones in there and further illustrates the depth of golf over there and also of your travels.
The list of the ones you left off would make a good trip!

Still not sure how you can leave off your favorites
No place for Kington in the Top 100?
what other favorites left off?

[Mark Pearce]

Jeff,

Kington is in at 52.

Sean,

The Dealies will be delighted.  Much as I love Deal (and I think it clearly belongs in the top 20) what makes it a group above St Enodoc?  I fully expected St Enodoc to make your top 10.

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