How to play any hole at Pine Valley for the expert player

[archie_struthers]

 


After visiting for almost 40 years and still loving and appreciating the time spent , I wanted to talk strategy for the expert in a qualifying round . Went ahead and wrote a blueprint to success for all the holes , and the route . but timed out . After more than a thousand times  around the course , just wanted to share .  So , any questions on individual holes and your ideas ?  I'll start it off .

[Joe Bausch]

Type the blueprints in Word or whatever wonderful computer program you love, Archie, then mail it to me.  I'll make sure it gets posted!

[Terry Lavin]

Would that I could meaningfully participate...

[archie_struthers]

   


Assume back tees , not necessarily tips .

#1.     455 par four.        Aggressive , aggressive , aggressive .   Just have to attack the first and believe in your game .  

Aim it right off the tee and try to hit it in the right hand corner of fairway . Have to hit three wood or even driver from back but there is more room than you think . The second is more difficult shot , so you need to make it easier .  

Second shot see part above .  Aggressive means hit enough club here at center of green. Don't aim right or left side just dead center with enough club . If pin is back you probably won't two putt from front so , as much as it seems contrary . Be aggressive . There a reason you are playing a qualifier here , believe in your game !

[Joe Bausch]

 


Assume back tees , not necessarily tips .

#1.     455 par four.        Aggressive , aggressive , aggressive .   Just have to attack the first and believe in your game .  

Aim it right off the tee and try to hit it in the right hand corner of fairway . Have to hit three wood or even driver from back but there is more room than you think . The second is more difficult shot , so you need to make it easier .  

Second shot see part above .  Aggressive means hit enough club here at center of green. Don't aim right or left side just dead center with enough club . If pin is back you probably won't two putt from front so , as much as it seems contrary . Be aggressive . There a reason you are playing a qualifier here , believe in your game !

Ok.  This has the potential to be a wonderful thread.

You go Archie!

Short is good on the first, correct?  Or maybe it is more accurate to say left, long, or right is a tough up and in?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Three wood or driver ..centre of fairway with a little peel.
Second shot to middle yardge unless pin is on front third then front yardage is golden

[archie_struthers]

 

Short isn't good , but it's far superior to,right or left . I'm all for playing enough club to get it to the hole , unless it's atl the very back . Long no good but green is over forty yards deep .  Have seen less than a half dozen shots over unless they were skulled, and that's over 6,000 shots plus or minus five hundred!

Joe , keep in mind this is a blueprint  for   the expert , not us .   The aggressive tee shot down the right is precluded for many . But for those with real game , it's the play .  Note , if they miss and hit in the bunker or heavy rough right , just sand wedge it left , then proceed with the plan .  For those  160  -180  out with a 10 handicap , short is fine !

[Tim_Weiman]

Archie,

I have only played a Pine Valley a couple times, but if I had read your advice about playing #1 I doubt I could have taken your advice.

My thought process - playing at around a 12 HCP both times - was to be conservative and just keep aiming for the middle of fairways. Ditto for approach shots.

But, you are right. After playing for the center of the fairway and to the very front of the 1st green, I three putted to back pin placements.

Great idea for a thread!

[archie_struthers]

 

Número dos....par 4.    385.

Hit your most loved and trusted long club , whether it be rescue , 3 wood or driver  .  Again you want comfort and confidence on this shot , probably the toughest tee shot save the three pars.   After much initial lamentation followed by analysis, I'm thinking t's hard to hit the fairway not so much for the width of same  but because it's so damn linear!  Nothing is harder than dead straight !  

After the tee shot you should have fro 110 to 145 to front edge ( experts remember).  shot is severely uphill and plays aappx. 10 - 15 yards longer than yardage , depending on wether you are 110 or 150.   Green is a big funnel , but you must stay in it , if pin is left resist any idea to chase it , if you pull it close , just smile .  Deep pin is not accessible , it just isn't woth any risk of long .  

Fabulous green here , incredibly slow front to back and even more so opsit . Read your own putts , you must read your own putts , then concur with your caddy .   Over read all breaks on this green and you will look like a genius , and escape three putts .  Play on !

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Whatever yo feel comfy keeping it in the fairway.
To me it's driver and then just keep it under the hole with the second shot which certainly plays an extra club uphill.
Superb hole with so many options

[archie_struthers]

 


#3.  Par 3. 210.  

This one is  sneaky hard but can be a real birdie hole . Plays downhill  but you cannot be short , note you cannot be short .  Irrespective of pin position ,  long and right is the play.   If it's front left. ( only saw it front right once ). the ball  funnels down to,the hole . Ditto if it's back , which is much harder of the two .   There is a nasty spine that runs thru the middle,of the green that defies the normal skill set of the best green readers and putters .  So,you must be right and pin high , work hard on your yardage and believe in gravity .

[Patrick_Mucci]

 


Assume back tees , not necessarily tips .

#1.     455 par four.        Aggressive , aggressive , aggressive .   Just have to attack the first and believe in your game .  

Aim it right off the tee and try to hit it in the right hand corner of fairway . Have to hit three wood or even driver from back but there is more room than you think . The second is more difficult shot , so you need to make it easier .  

Second shot see part above .  Aggressive means hit enough club here at center of green. Don't aim right or left side just dead center with enough club . If pin is back you probably won't two putt from front so , as much as it seems contrary . Be aggressive . There a reason you are playing a qualifier here ,

Archie,

I would disagree.

There's nothing wrong with bogeying the first hole.

You can't qualify just by making a par on # 1, but you can play yourself out of the qualifier by taking a big number due to aggressive play that wasn't executed to perfection.

Be too aggressive and the 1st hole can be a round ruiner.

believe in your game !

[archie_struthers]

 

Figured some one miight bite , as at first blush seems a good argument .

 Pat I've watched and discussed #1 many many times with players and caddies at length after tournament play .  Even for the expert , once you get more than 170 out the margin of error right left increases dramatically. We both know what lurks on either side.

  If you launch the tee shot into the right trap or rough , you wedge it twenty yards back to,the fairway and have a wedge or nine in your hand .  If you are really good , double is not in the equation from there . If you hit it good , you get a short iron in.  But iit if you pull it left and leave 180 or more into this green with your tee shot  it's just no good . Unless you play real conservative and accept bogey by playing short .

As to,my "believe" mantra , you gotta believe here more than almost anywhere .  Starting with a solid par on #1 with a two putt is the right mindset . Bogeying  with a pitchout is ok too . Still a positive result emotionally.  However , a three putt from the front edge or chipping back to,a pin and failing to make par is much more unnerving for most .

[archie_struthers]

 

#4.  485 par 4

Uphill , really long , and not as interesting from the new back tee. More difficult but not as fun perhaps ?

Don't like the new bunkers on top of hill right side , beautifully done  but take away strategy .These very bunkers were taken out of play for most by the new tee., making them even less favored .   Gotta just blast driver here and follow with rescue or even three wood on second . Only super long hitters get it down bottom of hill from back tee. , and not real,often .  Beautifully subtle green lots of sideways and front to back movement  nine times out of ten long is better , particularly when pin is back . You used to  resist micromanagimg  second shot and getting a super tough putt over ridge . Now the istance has reduced strategy IMO .  Still  a fine hole but more brutish than stylish . Four a good score here .

[William_G]

In the fairway and on the green, never been to PV

[Scott Warren]

 


Assume back tees , not necessarily tips .

#1.     455 par four.        Aggressive , aggressive , aggressive .   Just have to attack the first and believe in your game . 

Aim it right off the tee and try to hit it in the right hand corner of fairway . Have to hit three wood or even driver from back but there is more room than you think . The second is more difficult shot , so you need to make it easier .   

Second shot see part above .  Aggressive means hit enough club here at center of green. Don't aim right or left side just dead center with enough club . If pin is back you probably won't two putt from front so , as much as it seems contrary . Be aggressive . There a reason you are playing a qualifier here ,

Archie,

I would disagree.

There's nothing wrong with bogeying the first hole.

You can't qualify just by making a par on # 1, but you can play yourself out of the qualifier by taking a big number due to aggressive play that wasn't executed to perfection.

Be too aggressive and the 1st hole can be a round ruiner.believe in your game !

I'm with Mucci (that was hard to type). Front edge of the green on the first, unless you're somehow holding a 9i or less for the approach. It's just not worth missing laterally. If you're on the front edge or even 10m short, the worst you can make is a five, miss to either side of the green and it could be anything.

But I agree with Archie that it's worth trying to drive it down the right, because if you pull it off you greatly reduce the difficulty of the approach and if you don't, you're just as much chance of pitching out and getting up and down for par as you are of making par having tentatively steered your drive left, leaving yourself 190 yards to the hole.

[archie_struthers]

 

The second part of your post is sooooo true Scott. The place is all mindset , the shots are playable , but not when you are defensive . If you have distance control on the tee shot. It's quite wide

[Tim_Weiman]

Scott,

As I expressed, I am with you and Pat regarding #1. Regarding Archie's point about "mindset", the first time I played Pine Valley (as a 12), I was determined to avoid disaster. Shot 89 with six 3 putts.and no real blow ups.

Could I have played better with a more aggressive approach? I seriously doubt it

[archie_struthers]

 

Tim , with due respect , are you an expert player?   Plus handicap ,national calibre .  No prob , neither am  I , but have knowledge of them at this place .

[Dan Boerger]

I recall that Pat Mucci did an excellent hole-by-hole analysis a few years back. I will only add:

Your approach on 18 will most likely be from a slightly downhill lie.

(Great thread)

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ah is this the same Archie that passed on a match last summer with three fellow GCA members?

[J_ Crisham]

In the fairway and on the green, never been to PV

I thought you were taking me this year?

[William_G]

In the fairway and on the green, never been to PV

I thought you were taking me this year?

Crump Cup for sure, LOL

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I agree that the new tee on #4 does little to enhance the hole, apart from the fact that some people just hit it so far, that was not a problem for me.
For me , driver from the old tee was perfct unless downwind, now any tee shot there dies in the upslope and leave a long second shot from an uphill lie.
Still a great hole though, climbing over that ridge to the view is great.

[Mark Chaplin]

As one of my members friends says for handicap players "bogey is always a good score at Pine Valley"