[jeffwarne]

Dear USGA,
It greatly saddens me that many of the classic courses continue to be altered due to substantial distance gains in golf ball and club technology.
No doubt these additional distance gains are accelerated by fitness programs and athleticism gains by players over the past 20 years.
that said, many of my senior competitor friends, as well as myself hit the ball as far if not farther than we ever did, with nearly no fitness regime whatsoever.
Of course it can always be argued that many/most of the alterations clubs undertake are not needed as no major event is heading their way, but it is hard not to argue that the challeneges and strategies these classic tournamentless courses provide to good and elite players is at least altered, if not muted.
No one is saying golf is too easy in the hot equipment era, just different.

But that's not what this thread is about.

a few years ago the powers that be decided to take a stand. Kudos to them-finally they were going to address equipment gains.
Sadly, they chose to attack the anchored putter because "it looked funny, is untraditional, and MAY provide an advantage," though they admitted they had no data to back that up.
Ironically, greens are flattened all the time due to excessive speeds to make them playable, yet I've never seen or heard of a green being altered to make it harder because of an anchored putter.

Just thought I give you an anecdotal progress report on the players you seek to take the unfair advantage from.
because I'm sure we can all agree that the game will be a much better place without such ogres as Bernhard Langer and Tim Clark taking unfair advantage of their peers.

Keegan Bradley first  used a conventional putter in a late season event last month and had "his best putting event ever".
Webb Simpson gave it a try in his first PGA Tour event yesterday--a ho hum 62."one of the best putting rounds I've ever had"
Of course that's only 2 players in a very statistically limited sampling, but they're the only two examples I'm familiar with.

So thanks protecting us from nothing.

Let's hope the amateurs forced to adopt a "traditional" method have similar results and continue to enjoy the game.

I greatly look forward to eating humble pie when Rory McIllroy reports "his best driving round ever" with a wooden driver and a nonsuper ball.
Frankly I think it would separate him further

[Garland Bayley]

Methinks Jeff uses an anchored putter.

[jeffwarne]

Methinks Jeff uses an anchored putter.

Actually GJ, I never have, though I worked for Jim Ferree when he used one and used to mess around for fun.
Never wanted to carry something that long around.


Ironically, I do use a hot driver and pro V1 as without them you are playing a different game when competing.

I forgot to add that 99% of the spin that was created via square pre 2010 groove rules wedges is now achieved with
today's wedges.
That is one place they got me as I loved my old Eye2's (for the bounce and grind-copies just don't interact with the turf as well)

My point is they won't address the ONLY area that is affecting course scale and design, in an era of shrinking resources.

[Peter Pallotta]

Dear Sir/Madam:

Thank you for your letter of January 16, 2015. It is critically important to hear directly from the members whom we serve, and we greatly appreciate you having taken the time to write.

Such communications help to support a deep and ongoing commitment to truly open and transparent operations, and ensure that despite a markedly constrained fiscal environment we continue the long and dedicated history of serving the manifold and varied needs of the millions of stakeholders from across the United States of America to the very best of our abilities.  

As you will know, we are currently in the midst of a comprehensive review of the complex policy, procedures and human resource aspects and implications inherent in an organization of such size and scope. As one of our valued stakeholders, you are sure to appreciate that it is essential to our long-term efficacy that this review include the development of a responsive and strategically rigourous expenditure-vetting processs.

Given this process (as well as the key employee engagement initiatives we have recently introduced), we are unfortunately unable to fully address the issues you have raised at this time, and are not in a position to provide a realistic time frame in regards to when such an assessment can begin at the board level. We value your understanding in this matter, and again thank you for your letter.  

Sincerely

[Garland Bayley]

...
I forgot to add that 99% of the spin that was created via square pre 2010 groove rules wedges is now achieved with
today's wedges.
That is one place they got me as I loved my old Eye2's (for the bounce and grind-copies just don't interact with the turf as well)
My recollection is that it wasn't necessarily just a wedge issue. The old grooves would spin a 5 iron from the rough more than from the fairway.
...

[jeffwarne]

...
I forgot to add that 99% of the spin that was created via square pre 2010 groove rules wedges is now achieved with
today's wedges.
That is one place they got me as I loved my old Eye2's (for the bounce and grind-copies just don't interact with the turf as well)
My recollection is that it wasn't necessarily just a wedge issue. The old grooves would spin a 5 iron from the rough more than from the fairway.
...

no doubt not just a wedge issue, but a ball's not spinning more from the rough than fairway, ever.
That said, it's irrelevant as a bunch of people replaced their irons/wedges and their new ones spin at 99% of the rate of the old.
This rule didn't affect the rules abiding masses as pre 2010 grooves are legal until 2024 and only made illegal as a condition of competition for most professional and top amateur events

[Joe Hancock]

Would the spin issue go away if we did away with rough as we know it? After all, there wasn't buck-toothed sheep to mow the fairways of old, was there?

Joe

[Don Mahaffey]

buck-toothed sheep?



hey breed that one, ya ball will bit on da greens if you use mary's offspring to chew da grass!  (think Scottish guy with Bahamian accent)

[Garland Bayley]

no doubt not just a wedge issue, but a ball's not spinning more from the rough than fairway, ever.
...

All I can tell you is what the scientists measured. With lofts in the range of a five iron, there was more spin from the rough.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Merion GC - fwy. height for 1971 US Open = 1.00"
Merion GC - fwy. height for 2013 US Open = . 45" (.26 was proposed)

Some years ago ANGC couldn't mow its fairways for a practice round due to weather - Tiger Woods said the extra length was giving players fits as they were having a tough time figuring out how much spin the ball would have out of the longer grass.

Longer fairways, say .75", are a twofer* = less roll and less predictable spin.

*- not that a club hosting a PGA or USGA event is 'worried' about cost, but money will be saved in preparing the course, and longer fairways cost less to maintain over the long term - making them a 3-fer. 

[Thomas Dai]

If your playing the ground game are spin inducing grooves and high spin balls more of a hindrance than a help?

atb

[jeffwarne]

Merion GC - fwy. height for 1971 US Open = 1.00"
Merion GC - fwy. height for 2013 US Open = . 45" (.26 was proposed)

Some years ago ANGC couldn't mow its fairways for a practice round due to weather - Tiger Woods said the extra length was giving players fits as they were having a tough time figuring out how much spin the ball would have out of the longer grass.

Longer fairways, say .75", are a twofer* = less roll and less predictable spin.

*- not that a club hosting a PGA or USGA event is 'worried' about cost, but money will be saved in preparing the course, and longer fairways cost less to maintain over the long term - making them a 3-fer. 

Jim,
at least a 4 fer.
Less water to keep alive means more chance of firmer fairways, "firm and a bit slower"
+ the average guy (and pros for that matter)can pitch and chip off it and we'd see way more options and outcomes besides simply a putter.
and keep in mind that Merion's fairways were mowed higher than nearly any other Tour or Major course in 2013, despite being  more than 50% lower than 1971

[mike_beene]

Jeff, have you tried the eye 2 wedges Ping brought out last year.They spin it fine without the square grooves and give the same look and turf interaction it seems to me. I am using a 56 and 60.

[BCowan]

Merion GC - fwy. height for 1971 US Open = 1.00"
Merion GC - fwy. height for 2013 US Open = . 45" (.26 was proposed)

Some years ago ANGC couldn't mow its fairways for a practice round due to weather - Tiger Woods said the extra length was giving players fits as they were having a tough time figuring out how much spin the ball would have out of the longer grass.

Longer fairways, say .75", are a twofer* = less roll and less predictable spin.

*- not that a club hosting a PGA or USGA event is 'worried' about cost, but money will be saved in preparing the course, and longer fairways cost less to maintain over the long term - making them a 3-fer. 

Jim,
at least a 4 fer.
Less water to keep alive means more chance of firmer fairways, "firm and a bit slower"
+ the average guy (and pros for that matter)can pitch and chip off it and we'd see way more options and outcomes besides simply a putter.
and keep in mind that Merion's fairways were mowed higher than nearly any other Tour or Major course in 2013, despite being  more than 50% lower than 1971

Jeff,

    My guess is Merion's fairways are poa/bent and there would be less fliers than ANGC bluegrass fairways.  I don't think punishing a guy who hits the fairway with a flier is fair, I'd rather see guys hitting off little grass (non irrigated Goat fairways) or dormant then flier lies .  I know I am in the .001% on that one and it is never going to happen.  Arnie has been wanting bermuda greens at ANGC for years...

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, have you tried the eye 2 wedges Ping brought out last year.They spin it fine without the square grooves and give the same look and turf interaction it seems to me. I am using a 56 and 60.

Thanks Mike.
They actually brought out the copies in 2011. very sharp and diggy compared to the older and look very different looking down.
I had some success grind the leading edge duller and pushing it further back nearly eliminating the bottom groove(the bottom center was definitely closest to target)
The newest version I got late last fall and is definitely closer to the old model as there is less protrusion by the leading blade and it's less sharp.
maybe you have that version

Spin was never the issue, but I've always been a digger having grown up with a Wilson staff sw and then Ping Eye 2's since the originals in the early 80's.

Kils me they don't make a PW as I carried all 3 wedges.
I use a gap wedge as my PW and it's still stronger than my old Eye 2 PW (49.5).

[jeffwarne]

Merion GC - fwy. height for 1971 US Open = 1.00"
Merion GC - fwy. height for 2013 US Open = . 45" (.26 was proposed)

Some years ago ANGC couldn't mow its fairways for a practice round due to weather - Tiger Woods said the extra length was giving players fits as they were having a tough time figuring out how much spin the ball would have out of the longer grass.

Longer fairways, say .75", are a twofer* = less roll and less predictable spin.

*- not that a club hosting a PGA or USGA event is 'worried' about cost, but money will be saved in preparing the course, and longer fairways cost less to maintain over the long term - making them a 3-fer. 

Jim,
at least a 4 fer.
Less water to keep alive means more chance of firmer fairways, "firm and a bit slower"
+ the average guy (and pros for that matter)can pitch and chip off it and we'd see way more options and outcomes besides simply a putter.
and keep in mind that Merion's fairways were mowed higher than nearly any other Tour or Major course in 2013, despite being  more than 50% lower than 1971

Jeff,

    My guess is Merion's fairways are poa/bent and there would be less fliers than ANGC bluegrass fairways.  I don't think punishing a guy who hits the fairway with a flier is fair, I'd rather see guys hitting off little grass (non irrigated Goat fairways) or dormant then flier lies .  I know I am in the .001% on that one and it is never going to happen.  Arnie has been wanting bermuda greens at ANGC for years...

ben,
ANGC's fairways are a rye overseed, on top of Bermuda which generally is just beginning to  come out of dormancy come tournament time.
ANGC had Bermuda greens until 1980, which were overseeded with rye and all the speed those greens needed.
As they've gotten faster with the bent, tilt and slope have been reduced in favor of more distinct tiers.
Nonoverseeded dormant Bermuda would be lightning today, but the bent (can be) plenty firm at that time of year if they want it to be.

[BCowan]

Jeff,

  I know they are Rye overseed, my point is Rye grows very vertical, and at one inch is awful.  I would think bent grass would be much better at one inch or a higher cut than .75 with less flier like results.  i'd rather have fast dormant Bermuda and flier lies in the rough.  Yes, Arnie wants them go back to Bermuda, I'd assume hybrid now.  I am aware of 1980 change.  Hybrid Bermuda would be firmer without using sub air, less committee control .

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ben,

I believe the issue TW was addressing wasn't just about getting fliers - it was also about trajectory and consistency as contacting the ball in the same place when the actual height of the 'little' ball laying on the 'big' ball varies more when the grass is longer.  

[archie_struthers]

 


Pete , that was priceless . Well done!


in the spirit of non responsive responses , it prepares you for a run at political office

Cheers

[Bill Brightly]

Dear Sir/Madam:

Thank you for your letter of January 16, 2015. It is critically important to hear directly from the members whom we serve, and we greatly appreciate you having taken the time to write.

Such communications help to support a deep and ongoing commitment to truly open and transparent operations, and ensure that despite a markedly constrained fiscal environment we continue the long and dedicated history of serving the manifold and varied needs of the millions of stakeholders from across the United States of America to the very best of our abilities.  

As you will know, we are currently in the midst of a comprehensive review of the complex policy, procedures and human resource aspects and implications inherent in an organization of such size and scope. As one of our valued stakeholders, you are sure to appreciate that it is essential to our long-term efficacy that this review include the development of a responsive and strategically rigourous expenditure-vetting processs.

Given this process (as well as the key employee engagement initiatives we have recently introduced), we are unfortunately unable to fully address the issues you have raised at this time, and are not in a position to provide a realistic time frame in regards to when such an assessment can begin at the board level. We value your understanding in this matter, and again thank you for your letter.  

Sincerely

PS: In retrospect, the Ping lawsuit scared the crap out of us at the time we should have stopped the ProV1. Our bad.

[V. Kmetz]

Dear Sir/Madam:

Thank you for your letter of January 16, 2015. It is critically important to hear directly from the members whom we serve, and we greatly appreciate you having taken the time to write.

Such communications help to support a deep and ongoing commitment to truly open and transparent operations, and ensure that despite a markedly constrained fiscal environment we continue the long and dedicated history of serving the manifold and varied needs of the millions of stakeholders from across the United States of America to the very best of our abilities.   

As you will know, we are currently in the midst of a comprehensive review of the complex policy, procedures and human resource aspects and implications inherent in an organization of such size and scope. As one of our valued stakeholders, you are sure to appreciate that it is essential to our long-term efficacy that this review include the development of a responsive and strategically rigourous expenditure-vetting processs.

Given this process (as well as the key employee engagement initiatives we have recently introduced), we are unfortunately unable to fully address the issues you have raised at this time, and are not in a position to provide a realistic time frame in regards to when such an assessment can begin at the board level. We value your understanding in this matter, and again thank you for your letter.   

Sincerely

PS: In retrospect, the Ping lawsuit scared the crap out of us at the time we should have stopped the ProV1. Our bad.

+1,000,000 Hee-larious!

Every top-down communication in any professional system is written this way now... but Pete, I was disappointed to not see the word "stakeholder" deployed.

cheers

vk

[JESII]

.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Shouldn't the USGA be providing this type of help to member clubs?

No - that's what marketing/planning/architecture firms do.

Consider this: the USGA gives its member club all the necessary guidance it asks for. It pays off well for the club and they attract the extra business/notoriety they were looking for.
The other "top 5 or 8" clubs in town get wind of it - they would be properly pissed that an organization they support, one that is supposed to be working for all its member clubs, has become a marketing firm for one of them.

Or: ASGCA members learn that the USGA has 'chosen' one of its members (or heaven forbid, not one of their members)  above all others to help this club - that'll make for some interesting phone calls.

[Carl Rogers]

Dearest Moderator,
Can the USGA, PGA, R&A & equipment makers bashing thread type be eliminated in the new 2015 GCA thread standard?

[jeffwarne]

Carl,
Can you name one factor more relevant to architecture than equipment in the past 20 years?
And thanks for bringing this back to page one.

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