[Sean_A]

It seems every course is on a list!  I think all of my choices come in under 6000 yards from the daily tees...that may be the biggest lesson of all.  

1. Kington: Brilliant routing over hilly land, keep it simple stupid

2. Cavendish: Elegance in a small package; great use of existing features

3. Cumberwell Park Orange: Centreline hazards and width

4. Edgbaston: Long par 4s beefing up the difficulty of a short course; wondeful compact routing on a tight site

5. Cleeve Cloud: Great natural green sites, width and beauty

6 & 7. Oxford & Harborne: Building up green sites gracefully

8. Nastie Burnside: Compact links that offers al the thrills of a big links

9. Church Stretton: How to make a course walkable on a very hilly site, beautiful, width

10. Yelverton: Excellent earthworks

Ciao

[Daniel Jones]

Jeff,

   great thread.

5. Ocala Golf club- my favorite Fl track
6. CC of Silver springs- muirhead course in middle of nowhere, one of the few only courses that I didn't mind the water (carts only)  lots of quirk

A second for both of these. I grew up on the fairways of #5 learning the game from my granddad who was the club pro. And #6 definitely has plenty of quirk, and greens that in 25 years I have yet to figure out.

I'll add the Island course at Innisbrook. The lesser known sibling to Copperhead that's every bit as enjoyable.

[Clyde Johnson]

As is my standard response to any such question, New Forest Golf Club.

Paul,

My apologies if this is your standard response, but I dont recall any reference to this course in the past. A quick look on Google Maps has me interested?

Can you tell me any more, and what exactly is it possible to learn from the course?

Cheers,

James

I'm not sure I have seen the New Forest Golf Club mentioned on here either!

I was a 'temporary' member for a couple of summers, a few years back, so must have played it 20+ times - the most poignant lesson for me was the agronomic effect on greens of wild horse hoofs...I guess someone has to mow the fairways, since the club is only allowed twice a year!    

There are plenty of other courses that would offer similar reminders of how good and simple 'natural' golf can be. A nice, relatively compact routing with some good use of camber and a few natural features. A lot of half-par holes, those that stand-out: the long-par three eighth to semi-blind green that falls steeply away is tough to get right when the irrigated fairways are rock hard; the par five ninth that sits in a grove, beyond a stream; and par-four eighteenth that sits tuck-away beyond the crest of the hill. The short par-three second with its raised 'Needle' green is a brute, playing almost impossibly firm - you are thinking about this one before you have even got in the car!

[Yes Ed, Cape Arundel is a good shout!]

[jeffwarne]

It seems every course is on a list!  I think all of my choices come in under 6000 yards from the daily tees...that may be the biggest lesson of all.  

1. Kington: Brilliant routing over hilly land, keep it simple stupid

2. Cavendish: Elegance in a small package; great use of existing features

3. Cumberwell Park Orange: Centreline hazards and width

4. Edgbaston: Long par 4s beefing up the difficulty of a short course; wondeful compact routing on a tight site

5. Cleeve Cloud: Great natural green sites, width and beauty

6 & 7. Oxford & Harborne: Building up green sites gracefully

8. Nastie Burnside: Compact links that offers al the thrills of a big links

9. Church Stetton: How to make a course walkable on a very hilly site, beautiful, width

10. Yelverton: Excellent earthworks

Ciao

Gotta get to Kington
Going to check out Burnside this summer.
What did you think of Clyne? Caught a muggy windless day and the bugs destroyed me. but some cool stuff there

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

I never would have believed my eyes that Little Met is mentioned on GCA!  Now it is a very basic course, but does have some fun holes.  Not sure if Stanley Thompson would recognize the course as it was basic and has been "dumbed" down to make it easier for new and beginner golfers.  The course was quickly built and opened while Thompson was building Big Met for the Cleveland Metro Parks.
chris

Chris,

I have read that Stanley Thompson was the architect for Little Met, but always thought that was a bit sketchy and, of course, you won't find anything there of architectural merit. Still, I think it is worthy of study to understand the game and strongly believe we need more Little Met's than the rash of CCFAD that were built in the 90s.

[Sean_A]

Gotta get to Kington
Going to check out Burnside this summer.
What did you think of Clyne? Caught a muggy windless day and the bugs destroyed me. but some cool stuff there

Sherman

I haven't played Clyne.  Everytime I get near Pennard I can't help but to play there...its a sickness. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Gotta get to Kington
Going to check out Burnside this summer.
What did you think of Clyne? Caught a muggy windless day and the bugs destroyed me. but some cool stuff there

Sherman

I haven't played Clyne.  Everytime I get near Pennard I can't help but to play there...its a sickness.  

Ciao

Well I did replay Pennard again so I'm reforming.
Only one day more than 18 that trip (29)
Couldn't get my 14 year old out of bed!
You would like Clyne-fairways like Kington

[Sean_A]

Sherman

I think you would really appreciate the cleverness of Cavendish.  I am not sure what you would make of the others except Kington and Burnside.  I get the impression you crave a beautiful site.  If this is the very important (which seems to be the case considering your love for Nefyn  ), Church Stretton may appeal, but its very hilly, same for Cleeve Cloud (but its less hilly than CS).  The city Colt courses don't sound your bag.   Of course, you could always try Painswick. I don't know what you would learn other than to duck and cover, but being a tall bastard you likely already have the ducking skills down 

Ciao

[Ed Homsey]

Dumbfounded that I didn't mention Southern Pines, earlier.  A course I haven't played in 20 years, but I can still trace it's routing in my mind (not an easy task for someone well into their 8th decade).  Among it's teachable moments would be a lesson about it's greens.  Are they the result of Ross's genius with greens?  Or?  Can anyone tell us the story of SPCC's greens?

[Jason Way]

I don't have a list of ten, so I'll stick to the top of my list - Onwentsia Club in Lake Forest, IL.  Oozing history, the original 9 holes were designed by CB Mac.  Recent restoration work by Tom Doak, including quite a bit of tree removal, has sent it off the charts.  Got to play there two summers ago and it hardly looked like the course I played when I was a kid.

[Thomas Dai]

A few I'd otherwise suggest have been mentioned already but here are a couple of Welsh ones, lowkey and under the usual radar, that don't appear on many lists -

Welshpool
St David's City
Newport Links (Pembs) - Braid-9
Llandrindod Wells
Merthyr Tydfil (Cilsanws)

and an English favourite -

Minchinhampton Old

atb

[Mark Pearce]

Crail Craighead - how to build a modern course on a low budget and make it interesting to play by concentrating on the green sites
Bamburgh Castle - how an absolutely beautiful site (and it really is the equal of CPC) can guarantee a fantastic day but not, neccesarily, a fantastic course
Kington - how obviously artificial hazards can be used to brilliant effect, also, as Sean says, the routing
Brampton - occasionally brilliant use of wild terrain
Charles River - great use of contours and width
George Wright - good routing and good property can shine through poor conditioning
Strathtay - there is property too extreme for good golf


I'm struggling to come up with three more but am working on it.

[Niall C]

Mark

Good shouts on Strathtay and Brampton, both use similar topography to great effect. Not overly impressed with Craighead despite a couple of really good holes, but we've had this conversation before !!

My own candidates would be;

Elgin - how to make a big boys course without tonnes of ground. A real long shorty with 10 or 11 holes 400 yards plus, only one of which is a par 5, make this par 68 an enjoyable and challenging experience. Has a proper heathland feel with some really nice green complexes.

Forfar - not sure if I've mentioned this one before. Small course on small landholding that makes great use of undulating terrain. Another gold star for James Braid.

Stranraer - James Braids last course. Played this recently and thought it was terrific. Fairly open course with nice views (if you like that sort of thing) that uses the landscape well. Some really nice holes and some simple ones where he wasn't scared to keep it simple, a trick some modern designers might learn from.

Moray Old - vastly under rated links (indeed when it is rated). Has some terrific green sites and the best hole with a plateau green you would wish to play.

Duff House Royal - just to show Mark that Dr MacKenzie was way ahead of Gil Hanse in creating an inexpensive course and flattish land that has outstanding greens and bags of interest. A must play when in that part of the world.

Niall

[Pete Blaisdell]

Here is my list of tracks that I feel are underrated and deserve a visit up here in the Northeast. Thse are fun couses with great green settings , a bit of quirkiness , holes that present distinct challenges hole after hole and don't demand great distance off the tee, small to medium sized greens and demand thought , good iron play and better than average short games.

------ Cape Arundel , I agree with Jeff and Ed's assessment.
------ Little Marion  , Mark is spot on.
------ Northeast Harbor and CC of Greenfield , Brad and I are on the same page on these two.

------ My other choices fit my criteria . Some you may know and others not so much but worth going out of your way to play.

------ CC of Pittsfield, Nashua CC, Keene CC, Belmont CC, Blue Hill, Brae Burn , Winchendon School CC, Hooper GC , Cohasset GC, Echo Lake., Miacomet,
       Dublin Lake Club , Bald Peak Colony and Metacomet.

[Jon Cavalier]

Here is my list:

Schuylkill CC - GREAT set of late career Ross/Park Jr. greens
Manufacturers G&CC - Maybe the best Flynn course in Philadelphia  
Morris County GC - Some awesome McRaynorBanks template holes (notables: Double Plateau, Short, Reverse Redan)
Dedham Country & Polo Club - Same as above (notables: Alps and Maiden, Road)

Mark:

We seem to share similar tastes (in addition to geography). I'm a huge Mannies fan, and I've long told anyone who would listen that Morris County is one of the most underrated Raynors I've played.

To add to the list, how about Merion (West). Criminally underrated (or maybe overshadowed) and certainly a course one could learn a great deal from. Gulph Mills is another (though it might be on GW's classics list). Farther south, Elkridge is another Raynor with some fantastic templates.

[Mark McKeever]

John, I agree with your two suggestions.  My only reservations were that Gulph Mills gets a decent bit of attention from Philly guys but Merion west is spot on.  How many courses can you play 7 straight par 4's and never get bored of them!!

Mark

[DFarron]

or for lack of a better qualifier,
10 courses worth playing not on any list

not in any order

1.Mulranny-width, sustainability, creativity, interest, scenery, variety, playability
2.Cape Arundel-The greens!, playability, charm
3.Goat Hill-width, creativity, sustainability, ground game, imagination, playability, greensites running away
4.Gweedore-WIDTH!!!, scenery, sustainability, creativity, playability
5.Northwest-suoer compact routing, variety, charm, playability
6.St. George's LI(maybe on a GW list) wow!, greens, imagination, variety
6. replacement for St. George's if ineleigible Glen Head-ditto
7.Apawamis-greens!, compact, undulation, charm
8.Dunfanaghy compact, variety, scenery, ground game
9.Aiken GC  a model for most munis
10. Athens CC  classic Ross-(edit heard that's been vaporized )
    so Camden it is at 10

Note: Augusta CC, Southampton, and Palmetto(my 3 home clubs) would have made the list years ago but they've been discovered and may well be on classic lists

Athens Ohio CC?

[Tom_Doak]

I've seen two courses on my trip through the South this week that I learned from:

1.  Audubon Park, in New Orleans.  It is 4,200 yards par 62, and I admire the guts they had to build what fit the land and not fret about it.  There are a ton of par-3's [I'll have to go back and count], but they show great variety of lengths and orientation.  There are also a couple of good short 4's and good long 4's and a par-5 to finish.  And the setting in the park with a public walking / jogging path near the University is really beautiful.  Most of all, it was the best-conditioned municipal golf course I have seen in America.

2.  Laurel Country Club, Laurel, Mississippi.  I got there late and had less than an hour to power-walk it, but it is a terrific routing over heavily rolling terrain.  If you drove past you would probably dismiss it as having a bunch of parallel holes separated by pines, but the topography hits the property on the diagonal, and the hills are used to great advantage.  A tip of the cap to the late Tiger Bernhardt for sending me there  [though not for one of his Louisiana favorites, which shall remain nameless, for now].

My other great find was Capital City CC in Tallahassee, but I'm not sure I learned anything there, except that not all of Florida is flat!

[Andy Stamm]

1.  Audubon Park, in New Orleans.  It is 4,200 yards par 62, and I admire the guts they had to build what fit the land and not fret about it.  There are a ton of par-3's [I'll have to go back and count], but they show great variety of lengths and orientation.  There are also a couple of good short 4's and good long 4's and a par-5 to finish.  And the setting in the park with a public walking / jogging path near the University is really beautiful.  Most of all, it was the best-conditioned municipal golf course I have seen in America.

What did you think of how close the people (the paths especially) and the houses were? I can't imagine a four ball of average golfers not going into the public walking areas and people's gardens a few times in a round.

I'd love to see more of that kind of integration of golf and other activities, but I imagine it's generally avoided, especially in the states.

[jim_lewis]

Cherokee Plantation by Donald Steel demonstrates a remarkably efficient use of bunkers. Accomplishing more with fewer well placed bunkers. Only 28, but each seems to have a purpose.

[Jud_T]

Harrison Hills-  The original 8 holes are Langford that's not to be missed.  The 15th has to be seen to be believed and the Liddy addition ain't too shabby either.
Tamarack CC- for template fans, the 11th and 12th alone are worth the price of admission at this private Greenwich, CT Steamshovel Banks track.

[Phil McDade]

Harrison Hills-  The original 8 holes are Langford that's not to be missed.  The 15th has to be seen to be believed and the Liddy addition ain't too shabby either.

Jud:

Is Harrison Hills a good course to learn from in terms of integrating old architecture with new? There are a bunch of 9-hole courses that have been expanded to 18 that I've seen, and I'm always interested in how well -- or not -- features and attributes of the "old" nine are incorporated into the new 9 (even things like routing -- I've seen both kinds: two different eras of 9 holes integrated into each other, as well as two separate and distinct nines). HHills is said to be one of the better examples of integrating the new style and design w/ the old.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

Good question.  I suppose it's certainly worth seeing in that context and I think he did a nice job, but the property of the new nine isn't as special as the original.  Some holes fit quite nicely but one or two are a bit out of context given the land he had to work with (i.e. water hazard etc.). Frankly it gets so little play that we played the original 8 twice and the new 10 once.  Ran's writeup is also very good about this.

[Matt Glore]

1.  Audubon Park, in New Orleans.  It is 4,200 yards par 62, and I admire the guts they had to build what fit the land and not fret about it.  There are a ton of par-3's [I'll have to go back and count], but they show great variety of lengths and orientation.  There are also a couple of good short 4's and good long 4's and a par-5 to finish.  And the setting in the park with a public walking / jogging path near the University is really beautiful.  Most of all, it was the best-conditioned municipal golf course I have seen in America.

What did you think of how close the people (the paths especially) and the houses were? I can't imagine a four ball of average golfers not going into the public walking areas and people's gardens a few times in a round.

I'd love to see more of that kind of integration of golf and other activities, but I imagine it's generally avoided, especially in the states.

I think houses only come into play on 2 holes, but people come into play a lot more!  Its a park so they are walking paths in between fairways.  I wonder what the course was TD didn't approve of?  Audubon Park Nola is cart path only, at all times. 

[cary lichtenstein]

Mission Inn in Howey in the hills, fl, near Orlando
built in 1926, very quirky, i loved it

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