Cobb's Creek

[Jason Mandel]

In the "what courses would you restore" thread, i noticed Tom Doak listed Cobb's Creek in philadelphia.  cobbs is the best of about 5 courses owned by the city of philadelphia.

it was designed by hugh wilson, who only designed about 4 courses i believe the most notably being Merion East obviously.

anyway, i don't know if any of the philly guys saw yesterdays inky, but there was talk about Meadowbrook, the management company that runs the city courses, of spending 4 million in a restoration/renovation project, pushing the course from 6100 to about 6800 and hopes of having a big-time tourney(the mentioned us am, publinx, etc.)

so, with all of the great restoration experts we have in the philadelphia area, (ron forse, ron pritchard, gil hanse) just to name a few, who have they gone out to get proposals from? Greg Norman Golf Course Design Group.

I must say I dont know much about this design group, if anyone could fill me in a little bit it would be much appreciated.  the article did say that the group has no prior restoration or renovation experience.

a true restoration, with some lengthening and upgrades to irrigation and tree management would be great, but please, dont take away a rare Wilson!

here's a link to the article
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/6656971.htm

[Mike_Cirba]

jmandel;

The present Cobb's Creek course has 8 original Wilson holes, as well as 4 that are pretty similar.

Through a combination of factors, the course lost land during WWII which accounts for the present configuration.  I also believe, (although I've never proven) that a few holes on the Karakung course were original Wilson holes.  

After reading the article (talking about such things as "target bunkers"), I'm truly perplexed as to how the Greg Norman Design Group seems to have the inside track for this job.  The article also talks about them keeping the "current routing", which shows me that the group hasn't even delved into the real history of the course.

I mean, the course DOES need the upgraded maintenance and irrigation systems that the article entails, but it will probably be as much of a "restoration" as The Wiz was to the Wizard of Oz.  

[Jason Mandel]

Mike,

To be honest with you i have never played the course.  as a kid growing up my dad would always tell me how good a course it used to be as he grew up 5 minutes from the club at learned to play there, but the general sentiment now was that they just didn't keep it in good shape, but this meadowbrook group was supposed to fix up the philly munis.

i drive by walnut lane every day on the way to work, and i know that the course is not in the shape it should be in, nor are any of the munis, even though meadowbrook has been running things for a little while now.

so yes, it owuld be great if they got the irrigation, tree removal, and enlargened some of the greens.

but i'm like you when i read that comment about "target bunkers" it made me feel absolutely sick.  has norman's group ever done anything in the philadelphia region.  

i really think the problem starts with meadowbrook group.  i would venture that they have worked with norman on some of their other courses throughout the country and are giving the job here.

i really think the city needs to be provided with all the options, not just meadowbrooks norman plan.  

i may try to get out to cobb's this week just to take a look at it and try to understand it a little bit better.  the article was not real clear on how soon, or how serious this plan was, but i take that if joe logan used his space to write about this, and he was pretty much for it, that they must be pretty serious.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I have mentioned it before here, but there is no Bethpage Black lurking out at Cobb's Creek where I used to play my high school matches. It has potential to be more than it is, but it is not BB. The article mentioned it has only 100 acres. My suggestion would be to take Karakung down to 9 holes and use that land to grow Cobb's.

Mike C

Do you know which holes are the Wilson holes? My guess is most are the "Cobb's Creek holes", which are played over and through CC.

[Rob_Waldron]

Meadowbrook apparently maintains a  business relationship with Norman Design. Norman did both courses at Champion's Gate, Meadowbrooks's flagship property in Orlando.

Years ago I played in the Philly Open Am at Cobbs. The course just reeks of potential. However I am not sure that there is enough property to lengthen the course to "Championship Caliber".

[John_Conley]

I posted a similar thread a few months ago after hearing from the President of Meadowbrook at a breakfast.  If anyone can retrieve they'll find other comments from a few posters about Cobb's Creek.  The feeling I got then is that Cobb's is going to be nice, but that Meadowbrook is probably overselling the project when they say Bethpage is their model.

[macm75]

I am absolutely scared to death about the possibility of Greg Norman's group performing an "upgrade" to Cobb's.  I am also concerned that Norman's group is the only team that even had a look at it.  How can Meadowbrook be so closed minded about history and course design?  Also, how can they add the length where they need it?  In going thru all the holes, I can see the possibility of lengthing the course but the holes that need it the most are the ones whose tee boxes are against fences, woody hills, or Karakung (holes 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 16).  There are thousands like me who completely love the course in the exact form it sits today.  Figuring Meadowbrook would not contact Hanse or Doak, I can only pray the deal does not go through.

Holes I Love:
2 - Short par 4, creek limiting drive, uphill heavily sloped back to front green.
3 - Very short par 4, creek running in front of green.
5 - Split Fairway along entire length (they should cut down that one tree that prevents going right of creek)
7 - long par 4, short par 5.  Fantastic greens complex
9 - Short par 4, tee shot blind and uphill, green sloped sharp right to left.
10 - Short par 4, another blind uphill tee shot with blind shot to green (huge tall front bunker protecting green)
12 - One of the hardest holes in golf.  Very long with a crazy sloped right to left green.  Good luck getting par (4).
15 - Philadelphia golf at its finest.  My favorite greens approach that I know of.
17 - Beautiful, down in the valley, downhill par 3.  Great bunkering surrounding green.  

Mike_Cirba:
What 12 holes on Cobb's are original or similar Wilson?

Thanks,
Joe

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys:

I'll try to answer tonight.  Suffice it to say that most of your favorites are "in there".  

Someone should also head down to the Dallin Collection and grab a few of the many overhead pictorials of Cobbs...(I've wanted to for the longest time), because my sense is that the original course included holes that are presently on the Karakung course.  

The Karakung course didn't open until 1927, 11 years after Wilson's Cobb's course, and by an unknown designer.  I even read newspaper accounts of the day the course opened and NO architect's name was published.   Yet, given the configuration of the property, it's tough for me to imagine that the Karakung holes closest to the clubhouse on both sides of the road weren't part of the original course.  Not coincidentally, they are also holes bearing strong resemblance to their brethren on the Cobbs course.

Any thoughts?

[mike_malone]

 Mike C
 I have played Karakung only a few times,but have had the feeling that the holes on the same side of the road as the wonderful Cobbs holes are very similar.I think the par four that runs along the road toward the parking lot is very similar and wonderful.The short downhill par four (maybe#2)with the run in front of it reminds me of Merion as well.
   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

maybe Norman's company can add something to Juniata and Walnut  Lane too. Seriously, this is a no bid deal as Meadowbrook and Norman Design have their own relationship at Champions Gate. Unbelievable choice. From the comments in Joe Logan's article, Norman Design has no concept of historical design- "we'll add some length....some target bunkers..."

[Jason Mandel]

as i said earlier, while cobb's creek is near and dear to my heart for what it is and where it is, i have never played the course, i get a lot of this has to do with the fact that i grew up at a country club, and never experienced the public golf life.

with that being said i am going to go over there soon, for those of you who have not played it in a while, or just want to go back, does anyone want to try to play there on friday?  i think this would give us a much fresher and better persective as to what the could/should do.

what would tom doak say if one of associates referred to some bunkers in a restoration as "target bunkers", this is one helleva quote.  

jason

[Mike_Young]

article says
"In return for its up-front investment, Meadowbrook is asking for a break on the rent it pays the city in exchange for collecting the revenue from greens fees."
No reason for a management company to use anyone other than someone theyhave been involved with.  As many of you accounting types realize when ones says they spent $mill in improvements, it could be much cheaper but mangement fees etc can jack it up.  Always been funny how a deveoper will have his new course next door to the $10 mill cost 10.5 mill.
Also, Jason McCoy is very capapble of doing anything he needs.  Was trained by PD and can et job done..

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played Cobbs Creek for the first time since I was a teenager- almost 40 years ago. My user name almost changed to acer3x as I just missed a hole in one(less than a foot) on the short 6th(122 yard) hole.Overall, this course reeks of potential if the propsed work is done and done properly. The variety of holes-short 4s come to mind such as 2,3, 9,10 & 16 coupled with the long 4s such as 7,12,13 & 15 and the 3s and 5s- makes this a fun course to play. I'm not well-versed in golf course architecture speak to go into into the nuances of what is needed to restore this course. To my eye, bunker work is sorely needed. The bunker on the short 16th barely exists and is hardly visible from the tee, for example. However, I did learn from a staff member that the proposed work calls for a re-routing after the 5th hole so that the disparity in yardages from the present 9s(2780/3422) can be approximately equal.Other than that tidbit of information, I have nothing else to report on the proposed restoration project.It was a sunny, cool,breezy fall day and an enjoyable experience. For hole descriptions and photos, visit:http://www.golfphilly.com/index.cfm?relatedlink=Cobbs%20Creek&content=dcms&option=cobbscreek&edit_id=2108

[Tommy_Naccarato]

What wold it take to get a couple of you half-baked Philadelphians to go out, grab the wife's $30.00 Pentax and shoot a roll of film?

Doesn't anyone know how to take pictures?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

My friend forgot his digital camera. I don't own one.Next time.The website does have some photos.

[TEPaul]

A friend at Merion who for whatever reason became interested in researching old newspaper articles on Hugh Wilson and Cobb's Creek claims to have an article from the teens explaining that Hugh Wilson was merely on the search committee for the Cobb's Creek site--and I believe the article stated the name of the man who may have designed and constructed the course (I did not recognize his name). Obviously we're interested because generally in those early years where Wilson was golf corse design-wise William Flynn was too. I'll see if I can come up with that early article and include here the appropriate part. Seeing as most everyone interested in golf around here back then was aware of Wilson's roll at Merion if he'd actively designed Cobb's Creek you'd think the article would have said so.

Later

[TEPaul]

Also, in attempting to research what exactly went on during the design and particularly construction of Merion East--something that's still maddeningly frustrating regarding who exactly did what--the name Fred Pickering seems to keep popping up. It appears Pickering may have been the construciton foreman at Merion East. He was definitely the construction foreman when Merion West began but due to exessive drunkenness he was relieved early and William Flynn became the construction foreman of Merion West. (This is all in letters from Hugh Wilson to Piper and Oakley).

It appears Wilson considered using Pickering again in the construction of Seaview C.C., a course of Flynn's that Wilson may have had more of a hand in than we previously realized.

It's also likely, although not certain, that Fred Pickering was related to William Flynn somehow by marriage.

Of course, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that Fred Pickering may have been designing and was also a complete drunk, is, potentially, a very good thing (adds immensely to creativity!).  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, He also must have known how to speak Eyetalian.

[JNC Lyon]

Target Bunkers? Maybe the course will host the national archery championship. This is like building an irrigation pond on #17 at the Old Course.

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

Joe Valentine is the one who talked to the Italians--not Flynn, Wilson, Pickering or Toomey. Sometime into the 1920s Bill Flynn said to Joe Valentine;

"I sure wish I knew how to build a bunker as good as those Merion EYEtalians."

(That was from Richie the other day).