Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses

[Sam Morrow]

Sam, I'm wounded by that question (guilty or not).

I think the course stands on its merits with some good but modest land movement.  I'd describe the course as solid bread and butter with the occasional bold element.  I do recall a few walk-backs in the routing, likely necessary to lengthening.  Plenty of golf on the Gulf Coast, but this stands out above the likes of Fazio's Camp Creek and Norman's Sharks Tooth just to name a few.  While Pate is rarely discussed here he does good work.

Kindest regards,

Bogey

I agree, I loved that split fairway par 5!

[Mike Hendren]

Captain Pritchett, Ocean Course is also on the ten year plan, hopefully paired with Bulls Bay and Yeaman's Hall.

Not to put you on the spot but I'd like to read your take on Augusta CC.  I don't think I'd do it justice. 

Hope you're well.

Mike

[Josh Tarble]

Glad to see a couple of my Indy favorites sneak onto the list - I really enjoy the Fort and Trophy Club whenever I get to play them.

Have you played any of the privates in town?  Always like to hear impressions on my home club and I think both Wolf Run and Crooked Stick are really solid.

I also thought maybe you had posted about playing the Brickyard previously? 

[Mike Hendren]

Josh, haven't had the opportunity to play any privates in Indy.   I recommend Brickyard but didn't care for the holes within the track and the restricted site yielded too much linear golf in my opinion.   Also played Prairie View which was worthwhile but just okay.

Bogey

[Nigel Islam]

Jay, I wouldn't spend much time arguing with a man who put National Golf Links of America #1.  

BTW, I'm going to Graceland - what can I expect architecturally?

Bogey

The long lost art of shag carpeting as wall material.

[Josh Tarble]

That's a fair assessment of Brickyard.  I think there are numerous good holes, but definitely some repetition to them. 

Agree on Prairie View. It's a nice, average course.  Nothing offensive and nothing great.  Certainly better options in the area. 

I've enjoyed your list and this thread.  Could we get Bogey's 20 wish list as well?

[jeffwarne]

Thanks Jeff.  It sounds like you don't think the course is all that good, but you love because of memories?  Maybe I am wrong, but reading between the lines?

Ciao

No Sean,
I always had it as one of my favorites (i.e. what I think is great)
it's just that the greens have changed so much.
I still have it as a favorite (my definition of great) but would be interested in others opinion as maybe my judgement is clouded.
I do think it is at least very good, and one of the best in the south.
I'd have it at least as high as Mid Pines for example.
there is such a dearth of good old courses in the south in general compared to the northeast and midwest.
It wouldn't rank real high in metro New York-maybe top 40, but there a LOT of great courses in a two hour radius of NY

[Mike Hendren]

Josh, this is the ten year plan I constructed in 2012.  Delayed one year but I doubled down in 2014 and hit both 1 (so good I didn't make it west of Syracuse) and 9 (so great words fail me).

1.  Erie Canal Tour:  Lookout Point to Taconic
2.  LA - son's in school there and I must see the remaining work of George C. Thomas, Jr.  (any left at Whitemarsh in Philly?)
3.  Chicago - A great city with great guys.  Starting w/ Mr. Goldman's stewardship of Bendelow's OF-South
4.  Charleston - w/ an exception at Yeaman's Hall, most interesting grouping of moderns with Bull's Bay, Ocean Course and Harbor Town
5.  Canadian Rockies - Gotta get me some Stanley Thompson
6.  Scotland - The Highlands plus Cruden Bay and Cullen! (Plus a mad dash to Machrihanish and Shiskine?)
7.  Melbourne.
8.  Ireland - Royal County Down and Royal Portrush, then wherever.
9.  Southeast England
10. TBD

2015 might be Canadian Rockies.    I do have a hand full of one-offs including Yale.  The others might surprise you (i.e., not Pine Valley, Oakmont or Seminole) but I don't want to appear to be trolling.  As for TBD, I can't fathom not returning to the English countryside for the Arble rota.  

[Josh Tarble]

That is a fantastic plan you have and it looks like you're off to a good start with it.

 I do have a hand full of one-offs including Yale.  The others might surprise you  

I think that's why I like your list so much.  It doesn't include solely "Best Ofs" It has what you're excited to play, which means more to you than any compiled belt-notching list could or would.

[BCowan]

Bogey,

   Very nice list, couldn't tell you were a Dye fan.    Honors is so far ahead of Lookout Mtn?  Southern Pines is very low too?  I do myself have Pine Needles above Kingsley.  Have you played post restoration of Mid Pines?

Ben

[Scott Wintersteen]

Michael H,

I like your list too.  I have more knowledge of the midwest courses and think you should try and see some more courses around Chicago.  I also am happy to see Trophy Club and The Fort on your list.  They are two solid publics.  I agree with Josh though you will need to check out Crooked Stick and Wolf Run, they are on another level in that area.  

[Mike Hendren]

Other "notables" in no particular order:

RTJ Trail - All      
Bear Trace - All   
Sweeten's Cove   
TPC Snoqualmie      
Gold Mountain      
Home Course      
Sun Mountain - Prospector      
Sharks Tooth      
Camp Creek      
Lederach      
Glen Mills      
TPC - Sugarloaf      
TPC - Southwind      
Cherokee CC      
Chattanooga CC      
The Ledges      
Limestone Springs      
Brickyard Crossing      
World Woods - Rolling Oaks      
Clovernook      
Jackson CC      
Legends Club North      
Grove Park Inn
Longshadow      
Classic Club      
Athens CC      
Reynolds Plantation - Oconcee      
Reynolds Plantation - Creek Club      
Chapparel Pines (for Matt Ward)      

[Jason Topp]

Ballyhack significantly ahead of Lawsonia Links and Kinloch catches my attention.  To my mind, Ballyhack is a very creative course limited by severe land, clay soils and the necessity of a cart.  Lawsonia and Kinloch, in contrast are located on almost ideal land for golf.  I would reverse my ranking significantly but would be interested in your thinking.

[Kevin Lynch]

To my mind, Ballyhack is a very creative course limited by severe land, clay soils and the necessity of a cart.

Don't want to speak for Bogey, but I would say Ballyhack is a very creative course enhanced by severe land (but I'm a bit of an elevation whore).  The severity is what causes many of the thrills Tommy Williamsen was referring to.

I wasn't sure of your concern about the clay soils.  I know that's an issue for courses here in Upstate NY, as they may get too soft in the spring / fall.  However, I've always found Ballyhack to play firm & fast, even after days of heavy rain.

As for the cart necessity, I think that's been debated enough on concurrent threads.

[Mike Hendren]

Jason, I appreciate your comments.  Given the hypothetical 10 rounds between Lawsonia, Ballyhack and Kinloch I'd likely go 6-2-2 in that order.  Lawsonia fits firmly in my wheelhouse.   As someone who routinely thins the driver my biggest issue with Ballyhack is the number of forced carries.  I did not expect to like the course but appreciate the boldness of the design and think it pairs nicely with the terrain.  Kinloch is perhaps my biggest outlier and I expected some legitimate criticism - it is a stunningly beautiful course but I believe the architecture plays generically if that makes any sense.  I'm beyond grateful for having been invited there and hope my host will consider the source of these comments.

Bogey

[Kevin Lynch]

As someone who routinely thins the driver my biggest issue with Ballyhack is the number of forced carries.  I did not expect to like the course but appreciate the boldness of the design and think it pairs nicely with the terrain.  Kinloch is perhaps my biggest outlier and I expected some legitimate criticism - it is a stunningly beautiful course but I believe the architecture plays generically if that makes any sense. 
Bogey

Actually, that feeling you have about Kinloch is not really all that crazy.  It's hard to put your finger on, but there is a little bit of a "blending" in certain aspects of the design.  Perhaps it's too pristine that the perfection just blends together.  Of course, if you play it on the same trip as a visit to Ballyhack, any course is likely to feel a little generic by comparison.

There's definitely plenty to enjoy at Kinloch and it deserves a lofty place, but it doesn't grab my attention at all near the level of Ballyhack.  That's not simply a matter of aesthetics, as I also find the variety of challenges and strategy much more interesting at Lester's Roanoke offering.

Have not been to Lawsonia, but suspect I will get there at some point during a Wisconsin tour.

[Ed Brzezowski]

60 through 80:

61   Lookout Mountain
62   Lulu
63   Tobacco Road
64   Dismal Nicklaus
65   Wild Dunes
66   Knoll West
67   Rustic Canyon
68   Tumble Creek
69   Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry
70   Sea Island
71   Prairie Club - Pines
72   Black Creek
73   Belvedere
74   The Rim
75   Oak Hills
76   Tacoma Country & Golf Club
77   Wachesaw Plantation
78   Sahalee
79   Fircrest
80   Onondaga

I would genuinely like to see some feedback.  Please don't make me call out Bill Schulz.

Bogey

LuLu  outside of Philly?  Did you forget to look across Limekiln Pike at Mannys? Must be cheesesteak poisioning? I love LuLu but Mannys is a really great course, one of Flynns best, imho.

[JMEvensky]

No love for hometown Hillwood? I've always enjoyed playing there.

[Mike Hendren]

Ed, I'm expecting to be flooded with invitations to Philly's privates any day now.

JME, I left Hillwood off the "others list" because no one likely knows of it.  I hope you've played it lately given Bruce Hepner's solid work there.  Extremely firm and fast conditions coupled with bunker work and tree clearing puts it in the top ten in the state in my opinion.  Belle Meade and Hillwood are a toss-up given Hepner's work at Hillwood and Rees Jones' work at Belle Meade (I'll let you interpret).   What's left of Belle Meade's original routing is the tie-breaker in my book.

Bogey

[Mark Pritchett]

Captain Pritchett, Ocean Course is also on the ten year plan, hopefully paired with Bulls Bay and Yeaman's Hall.

Not to put you on the spot but I'd like to read your take on Augusta CC.  I don't think I'd do it justice. 

Hope you're well.

Mike

I think Jeff W. summed it up pretty succinctly as he has played prior to Brian Silva's work many more times than I have.  As to to what's on the ground today, I think the course has a solid mix of blind shots, thoughtful bunker placements, elevation change and undulating greens to keep things interesting on a daily basis. I seem to learn new things each round I play.  

[Sean Leary]

Sahalee ahead of Fircrest and Aldarra makes me not know who you are anymore...

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ed, I'm expecting to be flooded with invitations to Philly's privates any day now.

JME, I left Hillwood off the "others list" because no one likely knows of it.  I hope you've played it lately given Bruce Hepner's solid work there.  Extremely firm and fast conditions coupled with bunker work and tree clearing puts it in the top ten in the state in my opinion.  Belle Meade and Hillwood are a toss-up given Hepner's work at Hillwood and Rees Jones' work at Belle Meade (I'll let you interpret).   What's left of Belle Meade's original routing is the tie-breaker in my book.

Bogey

Well you can play my course but leave my Privates out of it please.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

60 through 80:

61   Lookout Mountain
62   Lulu
63   Tobacco Road
64   Dismal Nicklaus
65   Wild Dunes
66   Knoll West
67   Rustic Canyon
68   Tumble Creek
69   Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry
70   Sea Island
71   Prairie Club - Pines
72   Black Creek
73   Belvedere
74   The Rim
75   Oak Hills
76   Tacoma Country & Golf Club
77   Wachesaw Plantation
78   Sahalee
79   Fircrest
80   Onondaga

I would genuinely like to see some feedback.  Please don't make me call out Bill Schulz.

Bogey

LuLu  outside of Philly?  Did you forget to look across Limekiln Pike at Mannys? Must be cheesesteak poisioning? I love LuLu but Mannys is a really great course, one of Flynns best, imho.

Always liked Manny's, and often forget about it when rattling off any list of courses in the Phila. area.  It's very good course and i know there was work being done to it (i.e. restoration of some feature like the quarry hole, etc.) over the couse of what seems the last 3-5 years?  who's doing it?  and will this renovation work be done this year?  It's one i'd like to see on a return trip this summer.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ron Forse is the arch and Mottin Golf is doing the heavy lifting. Played it three times last summer and loved it, the facility just keeps getting better. First the tree program opened it up like it was when I was a kid, now the bunker work is putting some real teeth into the course. I believe it has the most difficult par threes Flynn ever designed.

Add in a great deck and open air space for adult beverages and it 's a home run.

[Mike Hendren]

Sean, I 'm mortified that I disappointed you.  I guess I need to rededicate myself to the study of golf architecture.  It would likely help if I could visit such stellar courses as, say Prairie Dunes but alas I haven't received an invitation from a member.  

Sahalee is suspect, no doubt.   Its 2nd hole on the north nine is the worst tree'd hole in the country, though you have to admit the 4th at Aldarra makes the top 5.  As for Aldarra, I'm still disappointed that Fazio sent me on a death march straight uphill at the 10th and 11th only to be rewarded with the rather pedestrian 13th for all the effort.  That, and his out-of-the-blue sod wall bunkers fronting the 17th hold it back ever so slightly.  

As for Firstcrest, I'm sure you are aware that Brad Klein uses the 17th as Exhibit A for tree encroachment with a historical photograph of the 17th green with Mt. Rainer hulking in the distance.  I do like the funky 2nd.

Tacoma G&CC remains my favorite in the PNW for its leisurely simplicity but I'm sure you have too much game to appreciate it.  I'm waiting for Mr. Choi to give me the business on Gold Mountain but overall I thought I gave proper due to golf in your absolutely fabulous region.

Hope you're well.

Bogey