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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2015, 11:25:45 AM »
I have Kingsley and the Straits right next to each other, and a few spots ahead of Pine Needles. However, I have Idle Hour and Prairie Club (Dunes) comfortably ahead of all of those.

I find myself in alignment with a lot of Mike's list. I probably should suspect him of being an uninformed moron too easily swayed by comfort stations and great clubhouses and cartball courses in the cases where I'm not aligned with him, but instead I'm generally able to see where he's coming from and it's sort of fun to see the spots where he sees things differently than me. I'm sort of like Pollyanna I guess.

Really, I just hope to someday be so well-traveled.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2015, 10:18:24 PM »
Bruce, I must admit that every time Minnesota Morgan pulled that wedge from his bag at CCC I threw up a little in my mouth.  

Andy, I fully understand your take on Erin Hills and Talking Stick North.  I'm more likely to stand by the latter - great use of the boundary at 2, 3, and 12, slightly twisting fairways beautifully bunkered, greenside bunkering typicaly skewed to one side for strategic effect, and cool greens within green from scratch at the 16th.

Bart, I liked both Prairie Club courses immensely.  I would have preferred more restraint on the Dunes Course given the rollicking terrain.  Idle Hour has fantastic, fully extended green pads with a nice mix of pushed-up and low profile surfaces, mean-spirited deep fairway bunkers and several stout par fours that are so often Ross' calling card all on a very spacious and open landscape.

Kevin, your comments are solid.  I must admit to falling in love with Teugega and giving it the benefit of the doubt by setting aside the need for tree-clearing and fairway recapture.  Glad to hear you're high on Yahnandasis.  I was pleasantly surprised by it after a somewhat pedestrian first couple of holes.  The one-shot 11th (?) makes my all quirk list!  Double dells coming home are pretty sweet too.

Kindest regards,

Mike

« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 10:38:01 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2015, 10:11:14 AM »
60 through 80:

61   Lookout Mountain
62   Lulu
63   Tobacco Road
64   Dismal Nicklaus
65   Wild Dunes
66   Knoll West
67   Rustic Canyon
68   Tumble Creek
69   Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry
70   Sea Island
71   Prairie Club - Pines
72   Black Creek
73   Belvedere
74   The Rim
75   Oak Hills
76   Tacoma Country & Golf Club
77   Wachesaw Plantation
78   Sahalee
79   Fircrest
80   Onondaga

I would genuinely like to see some feedback.  Please don't make me call out Bill Schulz.

Bogey
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 01:31:57 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2015, 10:54:37 AM »
Bogey

Since you threaten to sick Sargeant Shultz on me I will respond.  Unfortunately, I know nothing about a large percentge of the courses you list.  Might you be willing to tell us where you slot in some foreign courses on that list?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2015, 11:10:01 AM »
Fair enough Sean.

I would place the following above Ballyneal in the 9th spot.  Where, I'm not sure though The Old Course might take the top spot:

Sunningdale Old
Sunningdale New
Walton Heath Old
Royal St. George's
The Old Course
North Berwick West Links

Carnoustie and Deal would make the top 25.

Huntercombe cracks the top 40, The Eden the top 60 (notwithstanding the horrible changes) and Kilspindie the top 80.  

As you know I was totally blown-away by my trip last year to London and environs.  While there's so much to see in the future, I'd be hard pressed not to return to those six stunners.

How about my Preds?

Bogey
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 11:11:59 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2015, 11:11:45 AM »
Good Stuff Bogey!  Here's my feedback, in tranches:

1.  I've played 4 or your top 5 and I fully agree that they belong there.  I'd probably switch Merion and Shinnecock, but that's just niggling.
2.  I've played 8 or your next 15, and am not at all uncomfortable with TPC Sawgrass where you put it (Homer alert--I lived in Ponte Vedra for 3 years and am going to be there next week for a month or so...).  I also am comfortable with your BT/PD angst.  I think that they stand out against the other two there.  I like Trails better than Dunes (and give it props for doing so well without Ocean view eye candy), but Dunes is probably slightly better GCA wise.  Both have routing issues that will stop them from getting into your top-5.  The only two of your top-20 that I wouldn't put there on your list are OM and Pasa.  I see them hanging better with the Bandon D, Spyglass crowd on your liist.
3.  After Bandon D (#21) I've only played 4 courses in your top-80 (Spyglass, Chechessee, Dismal (R) and Rustic).  As per above, I think that Spyglass is too low, as are both Chechessee and Dismal R.  Rustic (as good as it is for what it is) is miles behind Dismal Red, IMHO.
4.  One thing that intrigues me are the omissions (so far).  Given your patch I would have expected to see somewhere in your resume the following (that I have played):  Pinehurst #2; Harbourtown; Dismal White; anything in Texas.  Am I missing something or have you been to some or all of those places and don't have a nice thing to say about them?

Hope this helps.  Let me know if you want some specifics.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2015, 11:23:57 AM »
Nothing in Memphis rates your Top 80?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2015, 11:24:20 AM »
Rich, I've always had Spyglass a little high - I like the broad-shouldered bread-and-butter style of RTJ.  I've never minded that the routing is weighted toward the start, but I do think the drop-shot par threes are redundant.

As for TX, I was a banking grunt when I lived there and marked my time at Tennison Park ("Daylight to dark at Tennison Park") and Jeff Brauer's Indian Creek.   For what it's worth the Oak Hills at #75 is an old Tillie in San Antonio.

Pinehurst #2 and Harbortown are in my 10 year plan.  I don't have Dismal Doak as a high priority - I have no doubt it's outstanding but I'm trying to broaden my horizons.    

As for Rustic, perhaps I'm subliminally trying to make amends with Tommy.  I feel like you busted me.

Your post does suggest I should have a final 25 or so that didn't make the list.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2015, 11:29:10 AM »
Nothing in Memphis rates your Top 80?

Spring Creek Ranch and Memphis CC are b/t 80 and 100.  I like TPC Southwind, particularly with the firm and fast maintenance they've instilled, but neither it nor SCR is inspiring.   Once I saw the set of old photographs of the extended green pads at MCC my love of the course ratcheted down considerably.  The routing remains brilliant.

Anything happening at Chickasaw?

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2015, 11:30:05 AM »
Bogey,

It appears we have similar taste (albeit yours are much better traveled) and I don't have much to disagree with you on.  However, I have Hyde Park much higher on my list.  I actually have Beverly and Chechessee right next to each other on mine, so I found it interesting to see Hyde Park so close. To me HP was one of the surprises of the year and I was stunned at how good and fun the course is.  

Like Rich, I also wondered about Harbor Town, glad to see you're planning on getting there.  Based on your list I think you will really enjoy it.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2015, 11:35:23 AM »


Anything happening at Chickasaw?

Bogey

Nothing I'm aware of.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2015, 11:54:54 AM »
Michael,

Not sure that I would include Wachesaw on my list?  Conditioning, yes.  Ambiance, no.  Design, eh.  The par 3 - 4th is good, not great.  The rest of the front is pretty bland.  #14 is a shockingly unique little par 4.  Love the way the green sits at the bottom.  #15 may be one of the most memorable and fun par 3's I have ever played.  With the pin in back section, I had to blister a 5 iron to the top left to roll down to the pin.  #16 is a fun drive and the elevation change is certainly unique to the area.  #17 is borderline over the top with it's landing area.  Everything funnels to the bunkers?  

#15 from 195 yards:  


The picture does not come close to revealing the amount of movement in this green and intimidation it holds from the tee.  I wish I would have snapped a few more pictures of this.

In Myrtle, I wouldn't put it ahead of:

1. Dunes
2. True Blue
3. Glen Dornoch
4. Caledonia
5. Heritage
6. Rivers Edge
7. TPC of MB
8. BF Fazio
9. Kings North
10. BF Dye
  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 11:56:31 AM by Joe Sponcia »
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2015, 11:58:57 AM »
Hello Joe.  I don't think we're talking about the same course. 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2015, 12:12:30 PM »
Fair enough Sean.

I would place the following above Ballyneal in the 9th spot.  Where, I'm not sure though The Old Course might take the top spot:

Sunningdale Old
Sunningdale New
Walton Heath Old
Royal St. George's
The Old Course
North Berwick West Links

Carnoustie and Deal would make the top 25.

Huntercombe cracks the top 40, The Eden the top 60 (notwithstanding the horrible changes) and Kilspindie the top 80.  

As you know I was totally blown-away by my trip last year to London and environs.  While there's so much to see in the future, I'd be hard pressed not to return to those six stunners.

How about my Preds?

Bogey

Cheers Bogey.  

I can't see much wrong with Merion near the top especially if some fairways are being pushed out a bit.  Its a great wee home club which can also kick ass.  

As I have N Berwick, Sunny Old and TOC in my top 10 then your 1-8 must be remarkable...though I must admit that as I get older NGLA, Augusta and CPC are taking on a near mythical status for me.  It is my hope to play one of these some day.  

I must say seeing Pine Needles at 23 is quite off-putting  :-X  Fine course, but for me it is miles behind Mid-Pines for charm and class.  I also have Dormie and Tobacco Road as more interesting and original designs.  

Its cool to see LuLu in there...its a course I really enjoy.  

Both you and Jeff Sherman Warne rate Augusta CC quite highly.  Can you talk a bit more about this place?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2015, 01:00:02 PM »
  

Both you and Jeff Sherman Warne rate Augusta CC quite highly.  Can you talk a bit more about this place?

Ciao
[/quote]

I sure like Bogey's lists.

Sean,
I'm afraid I simply can't be objective about Augusta CC, having grown up there toting my bag literally thousands of times between the ages  of 11-18.
The course I really grew up on had small(no doubt shrunken), tilted greens, and had a lot of width. Incredible elevation change like its neighbor. In short classic, somewhat architecturally neglected old Ross/Ogilvie.
In the 80's Nicklaus bastardized it with questionable green rebuilding and a green moved (#8) creating a long very awkward par 5 over Rae's creek which still has drainage issues.
In the late 90's Silva did  Ross "restoration" based on the original Ross plans-not sure they were ever in the ground, but the Silva greens bore no resemblance to anything I ever saw dating back to 1974, but that's understandable as much would've changed since the 1920's if those plans were indeed in the ground.
Some of the new work has grown on me and the greens are much larger with ample contour, but I do miss a bit of the old charm and small tilted greens.
Example #2 green was a small elevated plateau which was lowered and replaced by a much larger green.
#4 ditto-tee was raised and green lowered and essentially neutered.(to be fair this was done pre Silva)
#11 and 13 greens the same treatment (13 was once a par 5 and the explanation was that it was formerly a par 5 green but the cool thing before was a long par 4 with a SMALL elevated run-up suggested green i.e.variety)
The greens are bent which they struggled with in summer for years but seem to have that figured that out, but still in the summer bent is always going to be soft.(no doubt part of the reason for green expansion)
To be fair though I have not played there in the summer in 15 years.

The routing has only changed by switching 1 and 18 and moving 8 green so it's pretty much intact and the course remains a great walk, despite all the elevation changes.
Quite a few trees have been planted but they do not change the strategy and most are no big deal, though the ones left of 8 fairway look like something out of the Hobbit, and contribute to the bad drainage on that hole.
There still is generous width.
The ninth hole has always had drainage issues on the tee shot as well, being the low point of the property being next to 12 green at ANGC, (though quite a bit higher)

I loved the old course and I really like the newer version.(and it's certainly a great improvement over the awful Nicklaus version of the late 80's) My one complaint is the surrounds are kept very irrigated and soft. The last time I played it was during a drought yet pitch shots just off the green  brought up black mud in the divot.
A shame as it's a fantastic routing and design, and sentimentally on of my favorite places in golf.

Please understand I consider it one of the best courses in the south, but as I said I have a hard time being objective having seen a lot of versions. By all accounts of others it's much improved and a great place.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 10:14:45 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon McSweeny

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2015, 01:10:31 PM »
I don't have Dismal Doak as a high priority - I have no doubt it's outstanding but I'm trying to broaden my horizons.   

Apologies if I'm misreading you here, but this seems to indicate that the course you have rated 64 is actually Dismal White (Nicklaus course.) Is that so?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2015, 01:31:12 PM »
Jon, thanks for setting me straight.  Yes, I have only played the Nicklaus course at Dismal River.

Kindest regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 01:36:37 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2015, 07:11:37 AM »
Thanks Jeff.  It sounds like you don't think the course is all that good, but you love because of memories?  Maybe I am wrong, but reading between the lines?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2015, 09:36:49 AM »
Finishing up (and no Sean, Lederach did not make the list):

81   Turtle Point Yacht & CC
82   Olde Stone
83   Trophy Club
84   Aiken Golf Club
85   Aldarra
86   Talking Stick South
87   Wexford Plantation
88   Pensacola CC
89   Spring Creek Ranch
90   GC of Tennessee
91   Memphis CC
92   Fossil Trace
93   Bayside
94   Dunes at Seville
95   Desert Mountain - Geronimo
96   Southern  Pines
97   Quintero
98   Belle Meade
99   Mimosa Hills
100   The Fort

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sam Morrow

Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2015, 09:39:35 AM »
How much of 88 was influenced by your host?

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2015, 09:43:51 AM »
Nice to see Sawgrass on that list! (Though NGLA 6th... :o :(

1. National
2. Oakmont
3. Augusta

Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2015, 09:45:24 AM »
Any list with Aiken GC in the top 100 is a good list.
Any list with Aiken GC and Southern Pines both is a fine list. I love both of those.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2015, 09:47:19 AM »
Sam, I'm wounded by that question (guilty or not).

I think the course stands on its merits with some good but modest land movement.  I'd describe the course as solid bread and butter with the occasional bold element.  I do recall a few walk-backs in the routing, likely necessary to lengthening.  Plenty of golf on the Gulf Coast, but this stands out above the likes of Fazio's Camp Creek and Norman's Sharks Tooth just to name a few.  While Pate is rarely discussed here he does good work.

Kindest regards,

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2015, 09:49:10 AM »
Jay, I wouldn't spend much time arguing with a man who put National Golf Links of America #1.  

BTW, I'm going to Graceland - what can I expect architecturally?

Bogey
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 10:10:36 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Top 100 U. S. Courses
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2015, 09:51:23 AM »
Mike,

Have you played Kiawah Ocean?  Apologies if I missed seeing it mentioned on this thread. 

Mark