News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« on: January 04, 2015, 11:30:00 AM »
The current discussion about Nairn has set me thinking about flat courses in general and flat links courses in particular. About Nairn there seems to be a general feeling that the opening and closing holes on flat ground are dull, uninteresting or unmemorable. The flat holes at Harlech, Aberdovey, Pyle and Kenfig, Conwy have proved equally dull, uninteresting or unmemorable to many on this site. Royal Troon is not greatly loved and Hoylake has its detractors.

Ganton and Woodhall Spa are no more varied in the movement of their land. They are generally regarded as great courses, but probably few cite particularly memorable holes. Lytham is tough as old boots and flat as a pancake, but remains on the B-list of Open Championship venues for many GCA aficionados.

Send our tree-house residents to Silloth or Pennard, Royal County Down or Royal Dornoch and they purr loudly and lengthily. Is movement of the terrain essential to differentiate between a good golf course and a great one? I've never been to Seminole - and probably never will - but how much movement does it possess?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2015, 12:00:46 PM »
I would offer Pine Tree, Boca Rio, GCGC, Hollywood, Deal, Spring Lake, Atlantic City and others as proof positive that flat courses can be very memorable.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2015, 12:09:57 PM »
The current discussion about Nairn has set me thinking about flat courses in general and flat links courses in particular. About Nairn there seems to be a general feeling that the opening and closing holes on flat ground are dull, uninteresting or unmemorable. The flat holes at Harlech, Aberdovey, Pyle and Kenfig, Conwy have proved equally dull, uninteresting or unmemorable to many on this site. Royal Troon is not greatly loved and Hoylake has its detractors.

Ganton and Woodhall Spa are no more varied in the movement of their land. They are generally regarded as great courses, but probably few cite particularly memorable holes. Lytham is tough as old boots and flat as a pancake, but remains on the B-list of Open Championship venues for many GCA aficionados.

Send our tree-house residents to Silloth or Pennard, Royal County Down or Royal Dornoch and they purr loudly and lengthily. Is movement of the terrain essential to differentiate between a good golf course and a great one? I've never been to Seminole - and probably never will - but how much movement does it possess?

My favourite subject.

I think that many of the courses you name as flat are probably more rewarding to play over the long run than many you cite as not.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2015, 12:51:13 PM »
Mark,

From the courses being mentioned, it kind of depends on your interpretation of flat, for me?

I tend to be turned off by the flat parts of courses such as Nairn and Hoylake where the only interest comes from the bunker positions even though as Ally points out on another thread this is often the only way to generate different angles to the play of the hole and they are solid golf courses.

However some courses mentioned such as Ganton, or Pat mentioned Deal (I'm assuming RCP in Kent and not some other one in the USA?) actually have plenty of movement to the fairways, even if they dont have any hills to climb or decend, and this gives enough to be memorable for me.

Hey, I've lived in Derbyshire and the Peak District most of my life, learning to play golf on courses that arent ever going to be considered flat!  ;D

Cheers,

James
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 06:20:41 PM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2015, 12:59:51 PM »
Is movement of the terrain essential to differentiate between a good golf course and a great one?


Not necessarily, but it certainly gives a course a significant advantage, and your use of the term differentiation explains why.  

There will be exceptions to this, but in general, I would expect a great flat course is going to be one that is only appreciated cerebrally, but not necessarily loved on an emotional / heart level.

Again, I don't think a course needs the elevation change to be great.  But elevation adds so much more beyond optics, that if you have the same level of strategy, it's simply not a contest (in my mind).


Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 03:01:33 PM »
Boony I'm told Deal has around 600 feet of "climbing" during a round, yet you are never more than 20 feet above sea level!

Chicago GC is a stunning example of a flat course.
Cave Nil Vino

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2015, 03:34:58 PM »
Are flat women?

It's all about presentation, passion and experience.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2015, 03:40:08 PM »
Interesting Mark.  The links courses you mention do not inspire me, although Conwy sure kept my attention because of the narrow corridors. I didn't not that Ganton and WS were flat when I played them.  The bunkering seemed to minimize the feeling that they were flatiah courses.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2015, 03:46:40 PM »
Mark - I have never thought of Lytham as flat as a pancake. 6 and 7 are quite bumpy ride, 8 has some strong downhill and then uphill, 9 is downhill, 10 up over the sandhill, same 16...15 is a bumpy affair around the ground. 17 is not flat on the left, then 4th tee is quite elevated.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2015, 03:52:14 PM »
Mark,

How timely of a post. When I was emailing with Ran during the registration process (I just joined as a Newbie), he asked which UK course surprised me the most (both positively and negatively). I told him that the biggest positive surprises were both Brora and Royal North Devon. Regarding the latter, I wrote this specifically, "Although the crumpled fairway at Westward Ho!'s 6th hole gets much of the attention, I actually fell in love with the course for its flatness and subtleties. I find flat courses in general to be underrated, if not ignored. That's a shame for many reasons--most notably that they distill the game to its essence."

I always sense the purity of timelessness in playing golf on a wide-open flat field and never tire of courses, or individual holes, built on such land. There are, in my opinion, far too few of them. That the heart of the home of golf--the 1st and 18th holes on the Old Course at St. Andrews--is built on such land should tell us something.

In terms of playability, the shot from a dead-flat fairway--like the dead-straight putt on dead-flat ground--can actually be the most challenging. The seeming ease of it always seduces the golfer into getting lazy, and lazy shots (see, e.g., layups on par 5s) are almost always bad shots.

Thanks again for the post,

Benjamin


 
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2015, 04:26:50 PM »

Boony I'm told Deal has around 600 feet of "climbing" during a round, yet you are never more than 20 feet above sea level!

Mark,

I was referencing "Deal" in New Jersey


Chicago GC is a stunning example of a flat course.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2015, 04:46:56 PM »
Right minded folks will agree that relatively flat sites have yielded (and can continue to yield) not only good courses but even great and classic courses that have stood the test of time. (I won't use the term 'memorable' as I think it not a very useful one.) And yet, name one top architect working today who woudn't much prefer - and who wouldn't be the first to tell you they'd prefer - to work on an undulating and dramatic site?

You experienced golfers with an appreciation for gca -- name me a course built in the last 20 or so years that you have travelled to specifically to play that was built on a flat site?

Peter

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2015, 04:53:47 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 04:55:21 PM by Bill Brightly »

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2015, 04:54:06 PM »
You experienced golfers with an appreciation for gca -- name me a course built in the last 20 or so years that you have travelled to specifically to play that was built on a flat site?

Sweetens Cove
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 04:55:42 PM by Rees Milikin »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2015, 06:08:54 PM »
Indeed. But apparently the exception that proves the rule.
Peter

Mark_F

Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2015, 06:18:27 PM »
The two most memorable holes at North Berwick are pretty flat - maybe the problem with the flat holes at Nairn is that they just aren't as interesting. 

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 02:57:53 AM »
Pat I know you don't travel  ;) as for Deal, NJ the top part of the paddock is pretty flat but a nice drop down to the creek and back out again, plus 18 has some movement, I'd like to re-visit. Strange how the clueless with passports can join in!! Happy NY x
Cave Nil Vino

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2015, 07:33:02 AM »
Hideout
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

BCowan

Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2015, 07:58:52 AM »
Indeed. But apparently the exception that proves the rule.
Peter


Naples National

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2015, 12:03:58 PM »
Mark

What a great idea for a thread.

I was one of those who posted on the Nairn thread and defended the course against the general bashing that it received. Thinking about it afterwards it occurred to me that Nairn probably over the whole course has as much elevational change and rumple as Dornoch or Cruden Bay, or at least not far off it. However what tends to stick in peoples minds is the relatively flat opening and closing holes which is a bit ironic on the basis that they are considered un-memorable !

As you say Troon is similar and I don’t find that dull. Are those flat holes unmemorable ? Possibly, in comparison to others however that doesn’t make them bad or worse than some more memorable holes. For instance I would take them over Hawklaw at Cruden Bay and the 7th at Dornoch every time, and you certainly remember those two holes if for the wrong reasons.

I also think that one of the criticisms against flat links holes is that they sometimes lack definition or at least the challenge isn’t immediately obvious. However what are termed flat holes usually have some sort of movement, however minimal, and very often have a tilt or borrow that needs to be taken into account. Often that tilt or borrow isn’t immediately obvious from one play.

The other point you make about the general tree-house view is I think valid bearing in mind most of the tree-house are visitors to these shores. I tend to think that visitors are generally looking for Brigadoon and their idea of what Scottish golf should be like rather than taking it as it is. For every Dornoch or Cruden Bay there is probably a handful of very fine links that would come into the flat category. With that in mind it will be interesting what impact the Scottish Open will have on the perception of Gullane and whether Phil appreciates its strategic qualities.

Niall 

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2015, 12:26:44 PM »
Brunswick (GA) Country Club is probably the best flat course I've played. As long as you had a roughly rectangular piece of land, you could pretty much build it anywhere. Just a wonderful set of pushed-up greens.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2015, 01:05:56 PM »
If a remember correctly, Kinston Heath is a pretty flat course.
Tim Weiman

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2015, 01:09:10 PM »
Kingston Heath is indeed quite flat, Tim. And, like most of the other flat courses I've played, among the more enjoyable walks/experiences in golf.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2015, 01:20:25 PM »
The stipulation is that the courses must have been built in the last 20 years.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flat courses - are they necessarily unmemorable?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2015, 01:27:49 PM »
Kingston Heath is indeed quite flat, Tim. And, like most of the other flat courses I've played, among the more enjoyable walks/experiences in golf.

Ben,

Much as I liked Royal Melbourne, Kinston Heath really stood out for several reasons, but among them was a feeling that it might be the best course to play as a person gets well up there age wise. No reason not to walk.
Tim Weiman