The modern game, continued

[Tom_Doak]

Two weeks ago my topic was perfect yardage.  This week I've had another flash of insight.

Ted McKenzie, the professional at Stonewall, sent me the hole-by-hole scoring summary of the Pennyslvania Open on the old course.  Guess what were the hardest holes on the course in relation to par?

The six hardest holes, in order, were the ninth, fifth, fifteenth, seventh, eighteenth, and the seventeenth.  For those of you who don't know the course, the eighteenth is a long downhill par-4; the other holes are the course's five par threes.

I was particularly shocked by the inclusion of the seventeenth, which a lot of the members think is simply too easy of a par three, only 130 yards to a medium-small tilted green.

But the reason for this anomaly is simple:  suddenly, it has dawned on me that golf pros are hitting it so long that even the shortest of par-3 holes has a longer approach shot than all the par-4's and par-5's!

Maybe they should take the U.S. Open to a par-3 course for a real test.

[JLahrman]

I think that would be true for good players only.  The hardest shot in golf that we face every round is trying to hit a good long straight drive, even with these waffle-iron sized drivers.  If they did the statistics for some sort of flighted club championship, I doubt the stats would be the same.

So if you're talking about the best players then that would be a valid concern.  The distance boom is paying off for the good players only.  The Suryln guys aren't getting much more out of it.  I'm a 4 handicap and can tell you that par 5s that were out of reach for me five years ago aren't anymore.  But I don't see 20 handicaps getting any longer.  Maybe it's just me.

And Tom, with the way that they set up a lot of these courses, I think a driving range might eventually be the best place for the US Open.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

A couple of quick thoughts late night..

First, I wonder if the USGA couldn't end this whole distance thing by outlawing any club for their competitions that has less than 13 or so degrees of loft.  I can recall a time when standard drivers were 11 degrees and it's an oft-forgotten part of the current "distance" equation.

Second, I wonder if perhaps I've under-estimated the par threes at Stonewall.  A few years ago I posted here (contrary to your assessment) that Stonewall's Achilles heel are the par threes, which I didn't particularly think were up to the standard of the really enjoyably strategic par fours and fives.  On the other hand, I never did say that they weren't "tough".  

I'd also be curious to understand exactly what the distribution of scores would be on those with the very highest scoring averages.  My bet would be numbers 5 & 9, where doubles or worse could pop up with alarming regularity, probably had scores ranging from 2 to 7 or 8.  There is a certain penal quality to both of those holes and the VERY slight margin for error on each of them are a big part of the reason I find them less than ideal.

Finally, isn't it amazing that a 130 yard par three is now one of the longest approaches on the course?  Which bring me back to my first point!    

[David_Tepper]

I don't know what Tiger's current stats are, but I distinctly recall a graphic shown while watching Tiger play on TV a few years ago that his worst scoring (relative to par) over a whole season was on the par-3's. It was no surprise that his best scoring was on the par-5's, where he is two-putting for birdie most of the time.
I think the stats from the tournament at Stonewall would be corroborated at just about any stop on the PGA Tour.
I am pretty sure that it you charted the average length of birdie putts attempted on PGA Tour par-3's vs. par-'4s, the putts on the par-4's are from a much shorter distance.    

[JLahrman]

David, I would definitely agree with your putt length/GIR theory. I would have to guess that while the toughest holes on Tour are par 4s, there are enough pitch and putts for the pros to make up for it.  Wheareas those guys rarely play par 3s that aren't at least 175 yards.

Maybe that's the wave of the future?  If Joe Pro is going to start driving every other par-4, let's just make all the par-3s at least 220.

[Robert_Walker]

Who was in the field? Anyone from the TOUR that we know?

What were the hole locations like, and how were the "Pros" achieving these high scores on the one-shotters?
This, as the "perfect yardage" thread sounds very anecdotal to me.

[A_Clay_Man]

The par three, seems to be showing it's importance in tournament golf. Probably for the reasons Mr. Doak mentions, but even at the club level in medal play, the one shotter's seem oh so important for any chance at victory. Maybe, this is a bad example since I took third gross and played the 10 par 3's in 14 over par for the two days. O rmaybe that's my point.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Is theis a setup for the old gorrilla hitting the ball 400 yards every time, no matter the distance required?

[GeoffreyC]

Bill

When you assign handicap holes you need to chart the difference in average score between the low handicaps and the high handicaps.  Think about it.  The par 3's are hardest for both good and poor players so the differential isn't as large.  On par 5's, there are more chances for poor players to lose shots and those are the holes good players eat up.  Therefore the differential is greatest.

Its teh differential not the absolute difficulty.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom Doak wrote:

"Maybe they should take the U.S. Open to a par-3 course for a real test"

Yeah! They should take the Open to Painswick   for the pros:

1st 2-iron
2nd Driver/chip
3rd 3 Wood
4th Driver
5th SW
6th 7I
7th PW
8th Driver/7I
9th Driver/5I
10th 9I
11th 3 Wood
12th 5I
13th Driver/chip
14th Driver/chip
15th SW
16th 4I
17th Driver/pitch
18th SW

With tons of trouble if the screw up!

[Steve Lapper]

An interesting sidebar story to this thread is the following:

   In fall 2001, Tiger, Micheal Jordan, Ahmad Rashad, and Charles Barkley all came to Hamilton Farm for three days of golf and fun. Tiger proceeded to set the present course record of 66 on the big, Highlands course, par 72.
  In four attempts, Tiger was unable to do better than make a 54(Even par) on the Hickory (par 3 course). He exclaimed, " this is tough" and called it the best of its type, he'd ever seen.

 From the tips, the Hickory plays at 3150 yards is sloped at 98 and rated at 57.5 (3.5 over par). I like Tom's idea of taking a US Open to such a test and volunteer the Hickory for 2011!

  Think about it? All our Technology debates would be rendered semi-moot, the USGA can have another backyard party, etc...

[Bill_McBride]

The Florida State Golf Association just rerated Pensacola Country Club and the pro printed a new scorecard with new handicap holes based on 500 actual scorecards from rounds off blue and white tees.  The 2nd hole is now #3 handicap hole.  It's 135-155 white tees, 175-200 yds blue tees, all carry less 10 yds over a pond to a tiny (~2400 SF) crowned green with no bunkers, chipping areas all four sides and a slippery steep putting surface.  Nobody's happy about it being #3 handicap hole but it was #3 of the 500 scorecards so I guess there's no second guessing.  In a related question, does the USGA have a recommendation on ranking of various holes for handicap allocation purposes?

I figured out how to play it yesterday in the 4th flight of the club championship consolation match    Hit a "low" (i.e. skulled) five iron which skipped across the water like a well thrown stone and bounced onto the front edge, from whence I two putted for a rare won hole.  

[Texas_Three_Putt]

In a related question, does the USGA have a recommendation on ranking of various holes for handicap allocation purposes?

Handicap ratings are suppose to be based on the ability of a bogey golfer being able to make bogey on a hole. That's why most par 3's are rated as the easiest.

[buffett_guy]

I heard Curtis Strange say that the PGA pros expect to get it close from 200 and in and that a player would be disappointed with a shot on the green from 200 yards that was not in birdie range. I was a little taken aback by the comment, but I guess it may be true these days.

I certainly agree with the premise that par 3s are often the toughest holes on the course. The course I play a lot is only 6200 yards par 70. One par 5 is 590 but the other is only 480. I've reached the 480 par 5 this year with second shot 7 iron, 8 iron, and 9 iron. I birdie it pretty regularly and I'm not a good player. My handicap is solidly in double digits. The par 4s on the course are all about 400 yards and i hit driver, gap or pitching to almost all of them.

Almost the only time I hit something longer than a 9 iron on my approach shots is on the par 3s.

[Steve Lang]

 

would there be a similar factor that the big heads on drivers allow folks to take sloppier full swings that is filtering down to their iron play?  

[ed_getka]

Shivas hit on the point I was pondering. I think the harder swings that players take nowadays makes it harder for them to play short holes. Perhaps in their mind they are thinking their advantage off the tee is nullified on a par 3 and they press harder to get it close.
   A single played in our group the other day at Ft Ord. He connected on two drives of about 300yds drawn down the middle of the fairway. The other 12 drives were off the chart ugly. He has a horrible iron game, and a pretty much non-existent short game (he tries so hard to pinch down on the ball that he NEVER got it to the hole). He couldn't putt to save his life, which was interesting since he used an 8802 type better which I usually associate with better putters. This guy just couldn't do any swing that didn't go WAY past parallel. With a more compact swing he could drop his average score at least 10-12 a round.
   I think he just lived for the 300 yd drive, 170 yd 8 iron, etc..