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Bill_McBride

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2014, 08:04:22 PM »
A couple of years ago this shabby 10 played at Whisper Rock with a Champions Tour winning player. Off the tee we were identical length, his iron play was way better hitting all the greens. On the par fives all around 520 off our tees, he couldn't make the green but was always in prime position 10-20 yards short and made 3 of 4 birdies. Proper education in consistency and course management!

I've already mentioned last year on GCA a Deal team played a match against the French national team. In morning foursomes a scratch and a 70 year old 4 handicapper halved against their top pair. A 4 and 5 handicap pair lost on the 17th to a +5 and +6. Local knowledge really played out especially in foursomes. Singles went more in favour of the French.

That match vs France must really have been fun!    I can't think of a lot of courses where local knowledge would be more helpful. 

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2015, 02:41:08 AM »

 I think it needs to be emphasized that you are comparing SCRATCH GOLFERS to the pros, or 0's to +6's.  

Exactly the point I was going to make.

The nearest I've come to playing with a tour pro is a guy at our place who didn't make the grade on the Euro Pro Tour and so has returned to amateur status. He plays off +4 and is on the cusp of +5. He is SO much better than a scratch player - indeed he is almost certainly the best amateur in Cheshire. And this a guy who by his own admission wasn't good enough to earn a living on a 3rd tier tour!

I suspect that the top pros would have handicaps of +7 or +8 if the were club golfers. Add to that their composure under pressure and I am sure that they would make mincemeat of mere scratch players, even playing from longer tees.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 02:54:13 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Michael Felton

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2015, 02:31:20 PM »
Hi David,

That's a fascinating experiment. There would have to be an impact from ham and egging though with the format that you chose. I suspect the best 2 out of 4 helped you a lot more than it helped the pros. I would expect that if you took the combined scores of all the pros and compared them with the combined scores of your group (on the 2nd two days) that they would have beaten you fairly handily. For precisely the reason discussed below:

Tom - I expect that the ranges of scores of the pros would be lower than the scratches. The pros might occasionally throw in a 62, but they'd rarely go over 72 and the bulk of their scores would be in the 66-69 range. The scratches might chuck up a 67-69 (off the white tees), but they could also throw out the odd high 70s score as well. I would think their scores would range from around 69 up to 75 most of the time. The measure there is the "anti-handicap" or the average of the worst 10 of your last 20 differentials. Back in I think 2006, someone calculated Tiger's handicap based on his scores on the PGA tour. It was +8.1. If memory serves, his anti-handicap was +5.3. My index right now is +0.1 and my anti-handicap is 6.9. David might well be more consistent than I have been, but that's a range of 7.0 for me and only 2.8 for Tiger, meaning he is significantly more consistent than I am (or was then anyway).

Another example - Phil Mickelson, who is I think quite inconsistent as pros go, his handicap is on GHIN and right now he's +6.4. His anti-handicap is +2.3, so a range of 4.1.

Curiously David is currently 1.0 and his anti-handicap is 4.9, so his range is only 3.9, so he's pretty consistent. No idea about the other guys in his group or indeed, Mr Fowler.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2015, 01:11:10 AM »
Thanks for sharing David.  That had to be a lot of fun. 

David Ober

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2015, 01:58:28 AM »
Hi David,

That's a fascinating experiment. There would have to be an impact from ham and egging though with the format that you chose. I suspect the best 2 out of 4 helped you a lot more than it helped the pros. I would expect that if you took the combined scores of all the pros and compared them with the combined scores of your group (on the 2nd two days) that they would have beaten you fairly handily. For precisely the reason discussed below:

Tom - I expect that the ranges of scores of the pros would be lower than the scratches. The pros might occasionally throw in a 62, but they'd rarely go over 72 and the bulk of their scores would be in the 66-69 range. The scratches might chuck up a 67-69 (off the white tees), but they could also throw out the odd high 70s score as well. I would think their scores would range from around 69 up to 75 most of the time. The measure there is the "anti-handicap" or the average of the worst 10 of your last 20 differentials. Back in I think 2006, someone calculated Tiger's handicap based on his scores on the PGA tour. It was +8.1. If memory serves, his anti-handicap was +5.3. My index right now is +0.1 and my anti-handicap is 6.9. David might well be more consistent than I have been, but that's a range of 7.0 for me and only 2.8 for Tiger, meaning he is significantly more consistent than I am (or was then anyway).

Another example - Phil Mickelson, who is I think quite inconsistent as pros go, his handicap is on GHIN and right now he's +6.4. His anti-handicap is +2.3, so a range of 4.1.

Curiously David is currently 1.0 and his anti-handicap is 4.9, so his range is only 3.9, so he's pretty consistent. No idea about the other guys in his group or indeed, Mr Fowler.

Michael,

You're absolutely right about everything except a couple small things:

1) Our low scores from the whites would all be in the mid-60's. Probably 65 or 66. Maybe a bit lower. I've shot 8-under 64 twice and have posted several 65's and 66's over the years on courses that are considerably tougher, but my best years are definitely behind me. Everyone else in our group is capable of (and has shot) similar scores, some of them even in competition (my low in competition being 66 on a 71.9/128 course). Still, though, on a course of only 6,010 yards, 69.7/128, we could all definitely shoot in the mid 60's when the conditions were a bit warmer and the fairways a bit more "friendly" than they are in the winter at Bear Creek.

This time of year our low scores would probably be closer to 67, though, so you're not far off.

2) I'm currently a 1.0, but that's typically as high as I get in any month. I may go up to a 1.2 or 1.3, but that's during the winter, and then when we head into the season, my index will get back into the +1.0 to +2.0 range. I only say that for full disclosure's sake. On another thread on a different website, some guys were getting mad at me because I said we were all "scratch golfers," when in reality we all pretty much live in the + range for 6 - 8 months of the year. He said that made a big difference as to how he would have handicapped the match. One other player in our group has played in 10 USGA Championships, and another played some mini-tour golf for a few years, so we're all a bit better than the average scratch player, but at our advancing ages, certainly not much better.

You're dead on about the "anti-handicap" thing. I'm typically very consistent, as are two of the others in our group. One of the guys, though, definitely has a higher "anti-handicap" than the rest of us, and the pros certainly have very close anti-handicaps to their actual handicaps, I'm sure (that's one of the (many) reasons that allows them to play for a living -- their amazing consistency).

Finally, you're also spot on about the best two of four balls favoring us. If we had played a straight 4 balls vs. 4 balls match, we would have gotten beaten fairly handily. I think with a couple more times of playing them, though, we all would have settled down a bit a played more consistently, making even that match fairly close, but with the pros definitely having an advantage (75/25? 80/20?). We did definitely play a bit more "aggressive" golf due to the match's format, and I'm not sure they pros played much differently than normal because I think they may have had some bets within their group that they had to pay attention to, though I'm not certain about that.

Regardless, it was an absolute BLAST to play them, and we can't wait for a re-match!


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2015, 09:53:45 AM »
Thank you for sharing David.
When will you or your partners be playing from the white tees again?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2015, 11:01:54 AM »
How many scratch players are really scratch players? I do believe the Augusta member who acted as McIlroy's marker and beat him by several strokes is one. I have seen many poseurs make claim to be a scratch man but there are some that are kidding themselves. I consider college players to be apprentice pros and not subject to my comments.

Bob

 


Mr. Huntley, I believe you are referring to Jeff Knox who is currently a +2.2 index.   

MClutterbuck

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2015, 03:23:05 PM »
At thirteen feet, the pros would absolutely dominate on and around the greens and would easily win this bet.

Do you think this is the case? If 13 is a normal speed for the club, it could be the case that 4 scratch amateurs are more used to this green speed than the pros. I dont believe pros play these speeds regularly on the Tour. Case in point would be Jeff Knox showing Rory McIlroy how to put at the 2014 Masters.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2015, 06:53:38 PM »
Thank you for sharing David.
When will you or your partners be playing from the white tees again?
Cheers

The next time we do "the bet."  ;D

Although I enjoyed playing the whites, most of the guys at my club don't even like to play the blues at 6,410, let alone the whites at 6,010. We typically play the golds at 6,880 or the blacks at 7,157. I only hit driver 250 to 265 and I'm 160 to 200 on almost every par 4 from the blacks and that gets a bit old. The whites are too short (I'm hitting wedge into virtually every hole), but the blues are right about where I feel comfortable most of the year.

James Brown

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2015, 07:50:18 PM »
Agree on all the comments about fake scratch vs. real scratch.  I am a 1.5 but play a very easy and very short home course and shoot a lot of low numbers but can't score nearly as well on a "real" layout at 6800 yds.

As far as distance, I think there is no chance that a group of amateurs beat a group of pros if they are playing anything like the same clubs into the greens.  It needs to be at least 7 iron vs. wedges for the amateurs to have any chance at all. 

I was roommates with Tim Heron in college and he let me play white tees vs. blacks and always killed.  It's not the distance advantage, it's on and around the greens.  So architecturally, the better the course, is suspect the better the advantage to the pros.  If you wanna beat pros, play a simple course with greens that stimp at 7. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2015, 08:50:13 PM »
Agree on all the comments about fake scratch vs. real scratch.  I am a 1.5 but play a very easy and very short home course and shoot a lot of low numbers but can't score nearly as well on a "real" layout at 6800 yds.

As far as distance, I think there is no chance that a group of amateurs beat a group of pros if they are playing anything like the same clubs into the greens.  It needs to be at least 7 iron vs. wedges for the amateurs to have any chance at all. 

I was roommates with Tim Heron in college and he let me play white tees vs. blacks and always killed.  It's not the distance advantage, it's on and around the greens.  So architecturally, the better the course, is suspect the better the advantage to the pros.  If you wanna beat pros, play a simple course with greens that stimp at 7. 

I was thinking the same thing I always think when people say you should score better from the whites than the blues.   It's all about the short game and getting the ball in the hole.    I am always amazed by how many 20-30' putts the pros make.   

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2015, 10:06:56 PM »
Thank you for sharing David.
When will you or your partners be playing from the white tees again?
Cheers

The next time we do "the bet."  ;D

Although I enjoyed playing the whites, most of the guys at my club don't even like to play the blues at 6,410, let alone the whites at 6,010. We typically play the golds at 6,880 or the blacks at 7,157. I only hit driver 250 to 265 and I'm 160 to 200 on almost every par 4 from the blacks and that gets a bit old. The whites are too short (I'm hitting wedge into virtually every hole), but the blues are right about where I feel comfortable most of the year.

David, don't you think it the fairways were really narrow and the rough really high, from the whites you guys could take less club, maximize the number of fairways hit, and still have short irons to all the greens? If the pros are hitting drivers (or even 3 woods) from the back tees, I think the advantage would swing to your team. Don't you?

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2015, 10:44:07 PM »
Thank you David
What about practicing from the whites for the next time you have "the bet"?

Have you ever played a mixture of tees in the same round; white, blue, gold & black?
Wouldn't that be more fun as you'd need to vary up your average approach shots?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2015, 12:55:01 PM »
Interesting story and "research", thanks very much for sharing it.

If I may ask, David, did you vary your strategy for the shorter tees? For instance, did you play irons off the tee to hit more fairways, or did you continue to hit drivers so your approaches were much shorter? Did you notice what your fellow scratch golfers did?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2015, 03:04:15 PM »
Interesting story and "research", thanks very much for sharing it.

If I may ask, David, did you vary your strategy for the shorter tees? For instance, did you play irons off the tee to hit more fairways, or did you continue to hit drivers so your approaches were much shorter? Did you notice what your fellow scratch golfers did?

George,

I hit driver on most holes and 3-wood on a couple. Two of the longer hitters in our group hit 3-wood or iron a couple times, but at our course you can hit driver on most holes even from the up tees, which is one of the reasons the bet was so close against the pros. On a course where the amateurs had to lay back quite often due to doglegs and cross-hazards, the bet would swing the pros' way very quickly, as we wouldn't be able to take advantage of the distance gap.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2015, 03:05:57 PM »
Thank you David
What about practicing from the whites for the next time you have "the bet"?

Have you ever played a mixture of tees in the same round; white, blue, gold & black?
Wouldn't that be more fun as you'd need to vary up your average approach shots?

Cheers

Mike,

I love playing a mixture of tees, but getting my buddies to agree to it is difficult. In our weekly skins game we usually move a tee or two around a bit to create a driveable par 4 and shorten one par 5 maybe, but that's about it.

I like to play a game where the person who holds the tee gets to choose what tee to play from. I choose the red tees sometimes just to piss off my opponent. ;-)

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2015, 03:09:24 PM »
Thank you for sharing David.
When will you or your partners be playing from the white tees again?
Cheers

The next time we do "the bet."  ;D

Although I enjoyed playing the whites, most of the guys at my club don't even like to play the blues at 6,410, let alone the whites at 6,010. We typically play the golds at 6,880 or the blacks at 7,157. I only hit driver 250 to 265 and I'm 160 to 200 on almost every par 4 from the blacks and that gets a bit old. The whites are too short (I'm hitting wedge into virtually every hole), but the blues are right about where I feel comfortable most of the year.

David, don't you think it the fairways were really narrow and the rough really high, from the whites you guys could take less club, maximize the number of fairways hit, and still have short irons to all the greens? If the pros are hitting drivers (or even 3 woods) from the back tees, I think the advantage would swing to your team. Don't you?

Bill,

Yes, I agree with you on that, but our course is rarely, if ever, set up that way. Our driving areas are fairly ample, it's the approaches that give the golf course such a high (146) slope. The greens are almost all elevated a bit and misses are severely punished on at least two thirds of our holes.

David

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Pros versus scratch amateurs and distance advantage
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2015, 09:41:12 AM »
Thank you David
Good luck on your next bet and making your friends play from the red tees.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.