Should one charged with ranking/rating a golf course...

[Greg Tallman]

If I am not mistaken - I thought I read that each panel has between 250- 500 raters.
If they charge 250.00 per rater at 500 - that equals 125k.
That doesnt seem like much to me.

Why arent the magazines taking out full page adds and recruiting as many raters as possible?
If they are in it for the money?

.

Not their only revenue stream coming from panelists and I believe there are far more than 500.

By contrast GOLF Magazine has just over 100 well vetted panelists.

If you want to have an honest conversation, why don't you start by describing the process honestly.

Not a rater.

Sven

Please point out anything dishonest

[Steve Lang]

Greg,  Besides the $250, you do have to fill out a form and submit it too, and keep the responses within the lines!

We did join up one year and thoroughly enjoyed the rater retreat based out of Biloxi!  Did we get our cash money's worth out of it? Close, if  not, as very rarely asked to be comp'd, as never really plan much golf in advance as set out in "the rules"..  Interaction with the leader and others, and being exposed to the process, experience, and challenged to think about all the factors involved was, however, worth the cost and all... once. 

One needs to be able to think and compare what is being presented to one's own benchmarks.  The more diversity probably the better the ratings are, but after you play a course once, you know whether you'd want to play it again and whether to recommend it to a friend,.. its the condensed take-away opinion that's important.  Not quite comfortable with making that a number.

Pay your money, ya take your chances... 

[Sven Nilsen]

If I am not mistaken - I thought I read that each panel has between 250- 500 raters.
If they charge 250.00 per rater at 500 - that equals 125k.
That doesnt seem like much to me.

Why arent the magazines taking out full page adds and recruiting as many raters as possible?
If they are in it for the money?

.

Not their only revenue stream coming from panelists and I believe there are far more than 500.

By contrast GOLF Magazine has just over 100 well vetted panelists.

If you want to have an honest conversation, why don't you start by describing the process honestly.

Not a rater.

Sven

Please point out anything dishonest

Nothing, if you really believe anyone with $250 can become a GW rater.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,  Besides the $250, you do have to fill out a form and submit it too, and keep the responses within the lines!

We did join up one year and thoroughly enjoyed the rater retreat based out of Biloxi!  Did we get our cash money's worth out of it? Close, if  not, as very rarely asked to be comp'd, as never really plan much golf in advance as set out in "the rules"..  Interaction with the leader and others, and being exposed to the process, experience, and challenged to think about all the factors involved was, however, worth the cost and all... once. 

One needs to be able to think and compare what is being presented to one's own benchmarks.  The more diversity probably the better the ratings are, but after you play a course once, you know whether you'd want to play it again and whether to recommend it to a friend,.. its the condensed take-away opinion that's important.  Not quite comfortable with making that a number.

Pay your money, ya take your chances... 

Steve, I have no doubt there are any number of "golf junkies" like yourself that do it for the right reasons and the $250 is more about being part of a like minded group as well as interacting with and learning from Brad... etc.

[Tim Martin]

Should the President of the United States be a former military person since he is the Commander in Chief?  Should movie critics be actors?  Should food critics be chefs?  

I played a few years ago with a panelist who was terrible.  To my surprise he had a really great eye for architecture, maintenance and agronomy.

With all that said, yes they should be able to play but don't discount their ability to look at architecture and understand it.  

Disagree, If you cannot get the golf ball off the ground I have zero interest in what you have read on GCA and can subsequently regurgitate in the grill room after carding your 136 whilst cheating a bit.

Beyond that sending out solicitations for ANYONE WILLING TO PAY $250 is ridiculous.

I do not agree with Digest's "good player policy" either. There are a bunch of 10-20s that play the game and understand. You don't have to be a 5 but you do have to play to a certain level or you simply cannot evaluate a course.... "that bunker is at 257 and thus is a good strategic placement..." Sorry does not work that way.

Greg-Can you produce one of said solicitations or is this heresay?

Not certain though I assure you the multiple sources are as reliable as the Cabo weather.

 

[Greg Tallman]

If I am not mistaken - I thought I read that each panel has between 250- 500 raters.
If they charge 250.00 per rater at 500 - that equals 125k.
That doesnt seem like much to me.

Why arent the magazines taking out full page adds and recruiting as many raters as possible?
If they are in it for the money?

.

Not their only revenue stream coming from panelists and I believe there are far more than 500.

By contrast GOLF Magazine has just over 100 well vetted panelists.

If you want to have an honest conversation, why don't you start by describing the process honestly.

Not a rater.

Sven

Please point out anything dishonest

Nothing, if you really believe anyone with $250 can become a GW rater.

"Anyone"... of course not. Anyone who purports to play golf and knows someone who knows someone who knows someone? Sure. 

[John Kavanaugh]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

[Greg Tallman]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

I actually do not have an issue the concept as it was originated... a smallish group of well travelled, golf knowledgeable people who compiled their take on the finest courses around the world for publication in a golf magazine. Heck Tom's new CG is nothing different, just a very small group, and it is wildly popular among most everyone GCA.

That is not what is being discussed here however.  

[jeffwarne]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

I actually do not have an issue the concept as it was originated... a smallish group of well travelled, golf knowledgeable people who complied their take on the finest courses around the world for publication in a golf magazine. Heck Tom's new CG is nothing different, just a very small group, and it is wildly popular among most everyone GCA.

That is not what is being discussed here however. 

Greg,
Maybe we should sign up.
Cheaper than PGA dues!
But doesn't come with a Masters ticket

[Jaeger Kovich]

Would it have been better if they just walked and rated the course instead of playing?

[John Kavanaugh]

I tapped out when at the GCA outing at Barona the pro shop asked us to form two lines. One for people being charged and the other for raters being comped. In the mean time I've been comped close to 50 rounds because of the process. I love free golf more than life itself. It's addictive.

[Pete Lavallee]

Would it have been better if they just walked and rated the course instead of playing?

I suspect it would be a lonely panel if this were the recommended procedure!

[Greg Tallman]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

I actually do not have an issue the concept as it was originated... a smallish group of well travelled, golf knowledgeable people who complied their take on the finest courses around the world for publication in a golf magazine. Heck Tom's new CG is nothing different, just a very small group, and it is wildly popular among most everyone GCA.

That is not what is being discussed here however. 

Greg,
Maybe we should sign up.
Cheaper than PGA dues!
But doesn't come with a Masters ticket

LOL, I should respond to one of the e-mail solicitations just to see the reply. Honestly I would enjoy being on such a panel.

Speaking of "evaluating" golf courses I would love to put a camera and mic on a couple unsuspecting golfers who might have the misfortune of being paired with golf geeks like MWP and myself as we discuss every tiny (sometimes meaningless) detail of a golf hole whilst we beat ourselves up for hitting a shot a groove thin and 5 yards off line (OK mine is 15 yards off line and MWP's is 2).

[Greg Tallman]

Would it have been better if they just walked and rated the course instead of playing?

I suspect it would be a lonely panel if this were the recommended procedure!

Better though?

[Tom_Doak]

Greg-Can you produce one of said solicitations or is this heresay?

Not certain though I assure you the multiple sources are as reliable as the Cabo weather.

For a guy who's just recovering from a hurricane this was a poor turn of phrase.

I thought I understood your dilemma ... you think it's wrong and you should reserve the right not to comp raters, but you aren't the owner of the course ... but when you said you guys don't really care where you finish on their list, I got lost.

[Greg Tallman]

Seņor Tallman is omitting a crucial detail--that these goofballs were probably definitely pounding margaritas down at the Baja Cantina until 2 AM the night prior. Whether they were aided and abetted by the man himself is another question.

Ah, I do recall that "evening". Nary a margarita for me though.

[Brent Hutto]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

I actually do not have an issue the concept as it was originated... a smallish group of well travelled, golf knowledgeable people who complied their take on the finest courses around the world for publication in a golf magazine. Heck Tom's new CG is nothing different, just a very small group, and it is wildly popular among most everyone GCA.

That is not what is being discussed here however.  

Greg,
Maybe we should sign up.
Cheaper than PGA dues!
But doesn't come with a Masters ticket

LOL, I should respond to one of the e-mail solicitations just to see the reply. Honestly I would enjoy being on such a panel.

Speaking of "evaluating" golf courses I would love to put a camera and mic on a couple unsuspecting golfers who might have the misfortune of being paired with golf geeks like MWP and myself as we discuss every tiny (sometimes meaningless) detail of a golf hole whilst we beat ourselves up for hitting a shot a groove thin and 5 yards off line (OK mine is 15 yards off line and MWP's is 2).

Greg,

I have a golf buddy who is "into" golf clubs and equipment the way Lou Duran or Craig Disher are "into" golf course architecture. It would be unfair to say golf is just an excuse for him to own the equipment but it's a pretty close call.

Generally when he and I play it's just the two of us. But yeah, when there's another guy in the group he must think he's stumbled into some kind of arcane den of half-crazed geeks.

Don't know what would happen if those two worlds ever met. If I play with that guy plus one of my GCA buddies. Any fourth member of the group would be in serious danger of his head exploding!

[Greg Tallman]

Greg-Can you produce one of said solicitations or is this heresay?

Not certain though I assure you the multiple sources are as reliable as the Cabo weather.

For a guy who's just recovering from a hurricane this was a poor turn of phrase.

I thought I understood your dilemma ... you think it's wrong and you should reserve the right not to comp raters, but you aren't the owner of the course ... but when you said you guys don't really care where you finish on their list, I got lost.

The irony of the weather comment was not lost on me!

I have no problem taking care of panelists as a general rule. I simply do not agree with how it has been turned into a "1000 member international club"  of sorts by GW.

In all honesty their Mexico/Caribbean list is not something we are going to hang our hat on even if we were #1. Would it be nice? Sure. Better than 14? Certainly, but it's not something we are going to focus on and actively pursue.

  

 

[Tom_Doak]

Then tell your bosses not to comp the GOLFWEEK guys anymore, because you have nothing to lose.

[Greg Tallman]

Then tell your bosses not to comp the GOLFWEEK guys anymore, because you have nothing to lose.

If you read the entire thread you will see that this is being considered.

[Greg Tallman]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

John, I'll have you as my guest only if you'll join me for an evening on the town. I'm thinking you could be quite entertaining after a Don Julio or two. Not quite Tom Dunne, but entertaining nonetheless.

[Grant Saunders]

Greg

While I think I do get the point you are making, I would ask you the following:

As a golf destination, what is your target market?

Are suggesting the opinions of those who aren't better than average players with no knowledge of golf architecture are not to be considered?

Being that the majority of all golfers are in fact poor players who don't care much for architecture and all its sub topics, are you not effectively restricting your options by placing less value on their views?

Wouldn't the greatest ratings cover a wide range of abilities and agendas and having a couple of complete hacks leave your facility having thoroughly enjoyed themselves and your course be the best outcome or are you only interested in having a bunch of GCA type golf nerds play at your course?

[John Kavanaugh]

It is a great way for a married couple to cut into the high cost of green fees.

I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

John, I'll have you as my guest only if you'll join me for an evening on the town. I'm thinking you could be quite entertaining after a Don Julio or two. Not quite Tom Dunne, but entertaining nonetheless.

Would I have to play golf with you to?  My usual group doesn't mind playing 5. Who's Tom Dunne?

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

[REMOVED]

[Joe_Tucholski]

...
I personally try to avoid any course that comps raters unless I am being comped myself. Greg knows that is one small reason I won't visit his resort. This thread is a good start to the end of that.

John, I'll have you as my guest only if you'll join me for an evening on the town. I'm thinking you could be quite entertaining after a Don Julio or two. Not quite Tom Dunne, but entertaining nonetheless.

I love this interaction.

I think John understands his hypocritical stance on the subject in the fact that he openly acknowledges his addiction to being comped and even subtly solicits comps.

Not sure Greg sees his stance as hypocritical.

Personally I've thought about contacting the ratings organizations because it logically makes sense.  I don't have access to private courses, and the ratings panel would grant some access.  I haven't because I'm not sure I can dedicate the required time and because I have reservations about the racket that is run.

I am glad to see the last post saying applications are rejected.