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Thomas Dai

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Design by computer or paper?
« on: December 18, 2014, 03:44:13 PM »
Is too much golf design done with computers these days?

Is there still a place for paper?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/V_gOZDWQj3Q?rel=0

:)

atb

Tom_Doak

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 03:53:23 PM »
Golf design is really done entirely in your head. 

The only point of paper, computer, spoken instructions on site visits, or anything else is to try to explain your thinking to get it built right ... or for marketing.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 04:06:09 PM »
Thomas,

I'm not sure anyone actually designs on computer (I certainly don't). You need to draw on paper as it's the only way to actually feel what you are putting down. You can then transfer it on to computer.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 04:07:54 PM »
In part I disagree with that Tom. From the point of view of things I am more likely to be involved in and probably 95% of architects we have to make the holes rather than discover them. So often it's a case with working with a set of contours to make it all fit.  The better the land the more I agree with the way you are talking about though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 04:12:14 PM »
If I apply your question to irrigation design, it is almost all done on a computer, but I believe that whenever possible it should not be done on a computer, on paper, or by GPS, but in the field itself, and then transferred to whatever media you need to price and quantify the job.

For instance, if I have an irrigation renovation with no golf work, instead of drawing it first and then trying to get that drawing onto the ground, it is much more efficient to stake it first, and then record all the points and create the plan. Some will say that is not efficient because it takes more field time, I say it is by far the most efficient way since the client can see what you have in mind, and there are almost no changes since it is approved by the client before you GPS and create the paper plan.

But this question is more about golf design, and most laymen can't see a golf hole in the dirt even with it staked. But I still think it is a good way to work if the site allows it, and especially a good way to present a renovation. Why look at renderings or sketches when you can just stake it all out on the ground and go for a walk?

I wish the engineers who design storm water drainage systems used this approach. They use CAD and try to follow grades, but they don't account enough for trees and other obstructions and their quantities end up way off sometimes. At $50/ foot, it can mess up a budget up in a hurry when you have to reroute large drain lines.  

Ian Andrew

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2014, 04:50:39 PM »
It's conceived on foot
Often sketched out while walking if you have paper
Organized/checked/questioned in plan view (choose your format)
Corrected in the field

Any decision that matters involved feet and eyes (... and a laser because nobody's eyes are "that good")

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

RJ_Daley

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2014, 06:44:49 PM »
I can only relate some of my hobbyist experiences using computer "LandCADD" and working at a drafting table with varying quality and scale topo and elevation distances from two foot ele quality surveyed land maps to USGS five and ten foot maps.  I literally forgot how the LandCadd works, as I only took a series of weekly night school to learn the basics and don't use it and out of sight out of mind.  But you put the data into the model and if it is good scale and data points, the LandCadd works over the top, and it is great for drawing relative placement of mowing lines, placement of greensites and features onto the existing contour, do cut and fill volumes to shape in concept and get a good estimate of quantities, scale block or drawn pattern shapes of greens and bunkers, and draw lines across the contour lines to get precise distance and slope percentages, If the data is good scale and accurate on the input of the survey map that you ave digitized. 

But, there is nothing more satisfying than to sit at a drafting board, do the conceptual drawings,  use tracing paper to add various features as overlays, and then take what you have into the filed, onto the land and plat lines and angles, distances to landmarks and turning points and such, on the actual land.  It is fun to translate the data on the paper to the reality of the ground. 

I think the tactile aspect is more fun in drawing.  But the precision of the computer modeling has its place in precision yet needs translation to the actual ground

I think using all the tools would be a nice way to make a living, if there were project development opportunities to go around.  If they are scarce, perhaps a hobbyist who don't know too much of the real world is a less stressful way to go...  ;) ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2014, 07:08:49 PM »
Like others, I still basically design on paper, and Obviously, walking, talking, site visits first are important to get direction and learn the site, but routings really go best when thinking with a topo map sitting in front of you, with notations from your initial site walks.

I learned to do grading plans by hand sketch and contour lines. I tried for a while to see if I could adjust my thinking to do it straight into CAD. In the end, hand drawing and sending those sketches to CAD draftsman far more talented at that than myself to finish is the most effective for me.

While our various CAD programs can do some rudimentary things, they are really designed to put flat pads on landscapes, and roads into landscapes, which has limited applications in golf design.  However, after the grading is inputted, the CAD is miraculously fast at calculation of cut and fill, and various areas of each, so if we have to, we can redo the grading.  I usually tweak it a few times anyway for more artistry, different design, etc., in addition to figuring out how the cut and fill can balance better.

And then, of course, we continue to tweak the basic plan in the field again until its time to seed.

To RJ's point, drawing can be very relaxing.  My old mentor used to wonder how much of his design style was affected by his "wrist radius."  A designer with big arm span and free flowing hand might come out naturally with a different design than a smaller man or woman, no?  Less fairway line curves, etc.  Funny to contemplate.  I also recall drawing things that didn't come out like I thought. 

One personal grading weakness I had to overcome was to tilt the general green with the topo (and some backdrop areas) rather than orient them to the line of play.  In other words, if the back left corner was naturally lower, whatever we did to the green has to be a lower contour line than the right side.  I found this out early by designing a green with three same height mounds behind it.  When I got in the field and the right mound was fill 4, the middle was fill 8 and the left was fill 12, I knew it was a great example of how grading a green in the office alone isn't possible without field visits.

I know other architects who put many one foot stair steps in greens because they don't know how to handle the contour lines. 

And others who have certain predetermined ideas about what their plans ought to look like.  Case in point was right after we got 3D software.  One staffer complained the software was no good, it made his mounds look too sharp.  I made him redraw with wider spaced contours, and voila, it wasn't the software at all, it was how we drew them, and we used the computer visualization to refine our practices.

Its not always about just looking at stuff good and bad in the field, sometimes its about taking slope measuring devices, etc. and figuring out just what it takes to make a graceful slope and convert that to % slope and other factors to incorporate in the plan or tell the surveyor or shaper.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2014, 04:36:13 AM »
Thank you Gents.

Nice to get an inkling of how those in the business go about their trade.

Another question if I may, are there many clients these days who will accept a proposal that is not shown to them in computer generated format?

atb

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2014, 08:09:45 AM »
Thomas,

Yes, definitely.  There are still architects in my age group who simply refuse to use a computer of any kind, and the smart ones market this as old school, which some find charming.

It reminds me of a proposal cover I did once.  I took a picture of one of my existing golf holes, ran it through the "charcoal sketch" feature on a photo program and the darn thing came out better than any hand sketch I could have ever done. It felt like cheating.

And, with all the graphic programs out there, including many possible style types on Word even, I will say that I don't think and old style proposal cover of white paper and type gets you past the door.  Most architectural proposals these days have a golf photo, usually BW or Sepia toned, and some bold color covers. White paper doesn't exactly scream "creativity."  The same seems to be true in presentations, although going old school and just talking with some simple boards and handouts can work better than trying to put on a technical, rock and roll light show, which may distract from the message.

Its always been tough to sell services, and maybe I am just getting older, but it seems like everyone ups their game all the time.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2014, 09:50:01 AM »
I was fortunate to work for/with Rod Whitman building Blackhawk, Sagebrush, Cabot Links and a few other projects that turned out pretty good. I never looked at a single drawing with Rod in almost a decade. We'd talk, get on the machines, shape some stuff, look at it again, tweak it until satisfied. Budget and schedule would force us to finally stop!

I continue to work the same way, now. Very little in the way of detailed drawings. I'm fortunate my clients allow me to operate this way.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 09:51:51 AM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2014, 10:12:30 AM »
I agree with Tom Doak, design is in the head.

I wouldn't describe the methods as paper vs. computer, I'd separate them into built by plans vs. built in the field.
It doesn't matter if your plans are paper or computer, what matters is how often they are redrawn to reflect or adapt to what happens in the field.
In the right hands, it is way easier to redraw a line on a computer than on paper - it also helps that the computer computes the line length.

Many visitors have struggled with what was built vs. found at Wolf Point.
I don't think anyone could tell, even Tom, the difference between the subsets of what was "built" by plans vs. in the field.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2014, 10:31:31 AM »
Obviously, the thought process is in the head. At some point, you have to express it to yourself and others. It appears, as Jeff Mingay states, that some just draw it on the ground with spray paint, but at some point, you draw it somewhere, somehow!

And one point I was trying to make is that the medium you use probably subtly affects the end product in ways you might not understand, a la my example of wrist radius.  While I have discussed this before, and recall TD disagreeing, I have seen people tend to undersize things in the field, and I have also seen a tendency to place things at more of an angle in the field, although I will admit I have a small sample size, and it may not be universal.

Or, another way of saying there are some things that are most easily figured on paper where you can more easily measure them.  Take something like routing, for sure.  You might find some holes in the field, but the final product must consider the whole site, and in putting it together, looking at it at 100 scale has been the preferred method forever.  If it wasn't, Ross, Mac, and others wouldn't have drawn plans and sent them out to be built by (usually) trusted construction folks.

One example that comes to mind is my work in MN. If i want to think about some green to be built next summer now, then I pretty well have to use pencil and paper.  Ditto for thinking about some green I am designing in China, since its hard to get there on a whim!

Similarly, if you are committed to 45 yard fairways, 10 yards within the tree corridor, (very general idea) you can easily get that drawn on plan, mark that out as planned, and then adjust slightly as required to fit field conditions from there.  Its easier than packing or pulling a tape measure every so often and then adjusting.

Another way of putting it is that I don't see the stark difference between plans and field.  I see it as a progression, starting with field observation, refined to one degree on paper to work out certain basic things, and further refinement in the field where the details are best seen.

I get the impression that some here think it has to be either or, and those architects who provide computer generated green plans just never go in the field because they think they don't have to.  While I do recall a few architects from early in my career (1970's) who felt that way, I don't know as many now, nor would any architect likely to be discussed here do it that way.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 10:35:15 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2014, 11:03:37 AM »
Unfortunately this has descended in to a plan vs field discussion again. In my opinion, that wasn't the crux of the initial question.

Frank Pont

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2014, 02:07:05 PM »
I do all my (contour) drawings on Cad, its quicker and I get a very good feel for the results quickly by going back and forth between Civil3D and Sketchup to get visualisations of what you draw.

You actually need drawings in Europe to get permits, as TD must have found out working in France. That does not mean what you draw is what you end up with.

At Swinkelsche we used my 3d green contour maps as a first iteration and then started making them look more organic and better looking.

If I did not need detailed drawings for permitting and my client wouldn't care and budgets were no issue I would only do the routing in Cad, the rest in the field.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2014, 02:58:54 PM »
Unfortunately this has descended in to a plan vs field discussion again. In my opinion, that wasn't the crux of the initial question.

OK, to answer his question ...

I use computers exclusively because everything that must be submitted or coordinated must go out "digitally" (at least here they do).
I can sketch on a computer because a mouse can be as liberated as a pencil if that's what you are used to using.
That means drawing on a paper is an extra step - and when your on your own - you don't waste time with extra steps.

Measuring on computer is a tenth of the time as working quantities out from paper.
That as Mike said is a huge asset because we all need to quantify what we intend (to have the materials we need to build)
That saves time.

Making changes is a tenth of the time as changing drawn documents (I'm from that era)
For someone very used to computers and various software you know they save time.

And yet....
I still sketch ( which is a waste of time in a digital world of Abode products and sketch up can provide superior results in a tenth of the time )
I love to work out ideas for holes with pencil and paper when thinking "because the tactile experience is pleasurable for me."
I try to extend the parts of the process that I enjoy the most ...

I'm still not sure how answering this helps anyone...
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Thomas Dai

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2014, 03:44:59 PM »
I'm still not sure how answering this helps anyone...

I raised the question out of curiosity Ian as computers seem to be playing an every increasing part in everyday life.

Whilst I can't speak for any other reader I have found the various responses to be very interesting.

To elaborate a little, anytime I hear directly from those who spend their careers at the sharp end of a business, any business really, it enhances my knowledge of that business and one of great things about GCA is the ability to access folk at the sharp end of the golf design business so thank you to all who have responded to this thread.

Atb

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2014, 05:11:25 PM »
Ian and Frank,

I can't imagine drawing straight on to screen - certainly with respect to detail green plans - but then I'm not as computer literate as I need to be. It's awful to think that the thing I need to work at most is brushing up on this for speed but especially for presentation skills.

Most architects I know still use pencil first (before transferring to CAD). But if you genuinely think that you can be as artistic cutting that step out, then that is definitely an advantage.

Ally

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2014, 06:06:25 PM »
You actually need drawings in Europe to get permits, as TD must have found out working in France. That does not mean what you draw is what you end up with.

At Swinkelsche we used my 3d green contour maps as a first iteration and then started making them look more organic and better looking.

If I did not need detailed drawings for permitting and my client wouldn't care and budgets were no issue I would only do the routing in Cad, the rest in the field.

Luckily someone else had already done a full set of construction drawings for the permits.  We had to do a drawing showing our new clearing work, because the acreage of trees to be cleared was restricted by permit, but they didn't make us re-do grading plans for the golf holes.  [Perhaps because we didn't offer.  :) ]

Keith Cutten

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2014, 07:34:08 PM »
Golf design is really done entirely in your head. 

The only point of paper, computer, spoken instructions on site visits, or anything else is to try to explain your thinking to get it built right ... or for marketing.

Tom's initial response here hits the nail on the head... for the architects that "get it", detailed design work is completed in the field.  Drawings, whether they be via computer or pencil, are simply tools to convey design ideas to clients, the public (permitting process) or investors.  Architects are in the business of selling themselves - drawings are simply the architect's marketing tool.     


I was fortunate to work for/with Rod Whitman building Blackhawk, Sagebrush, Cabot Links and a few other projects that turned out pretty good. I never looked at a single drawing with Rod in almost a decade. We'd talk, get on the machines, shape some stuff, look at it again, tweak it until satisfied. Budget and schedule would force us to finally stop!

I continue to work the same way, now. Very little in the way of detailed drawings. I'm fortunate my clients allow me to operate this way.

Having worked with Jeff (and Rod) for almost 8 years now, creating all manner of graphic material, I can speak to the fact that the computer is rarely used once construction begins.  Detailed work is completed in the field where every hill and hummock can be studied and is not lost in a generalized contour plan.  However, to get to the construction phase the computer and pencil are crucial to convey intent.  From plans to visualizations we use the computer to illustrate proposed changes.  The majority of the general public cannot understand 2D construction drawings, so while we often create attractive routing plans, we also rely on before and after renderings to illustrate design ideas.  Thus, again, the computer and pencil are necessary marketing tools in order to get into the dirt.
"Excellence of design is more felt than fully realized." - Alister MacKenzie - The Spirit of St. Andrews

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 03:48:03 AM »
Keith,

This continued promoting of 'those that "get it" design in the field' does nothing to change the biases of the majority of non-architects who read this forum. There are plenty of examples where detailed drawings are needed for activities other than sales or presentation. There are numerous technical and good practice reasons to produce certain plans. I also happen to know quite a few architects who both "get it" and continue to work in the full-on tender package / contractor model for which a full set of plans are clearly needed.

That said, I personally agree wholeheartedly that the artistic element of the detail design is best done in the field. I've been lucky enough in my small number of projects to date to be able to work in this style and without a full set of plans. Once any technical hurdles of a project are surmounted, then it is surely the most liberating way to tackle the detail and finishing.

Ally

Ian Andrew

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 09:52:20 AM »
Keith,

Have you ever seen any of the working detail boards for a Tom Thompson painting in the AGO?
There is a great example where a collection is presented with the final work.
You can see how certain ideas were developed out through trial and error.

For some, "a process" is essential to getting a desired result.

Do you think he would have been a better painter if he went straight to canvas in the location that inspired the painting?

I never question anyone's process, because its a personal journey.

              from AGO's collection....
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 09:54:41 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tim Liddy

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2014, 10:12:52 AM »
“A plan is a map, a chart, a mere diagram, a mathematical projection before the fact. The original plan may be thrown away as the work proceeds - probably most of those for the most wonderful buildings in the world were, because the concept grows and matures during realization, if the mastermind is continually with the work.”

Frank Lloyd Wright

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2014, 10:37:18 AM »
Great quote, Tim ... would be believable to substitute Mr. Dye's name for Mr. Wright's there, right?

Ian,

I like your Tom Thompson analogy, a lot. Recently, I've thought about a similar process relative to golf design ... I question myself some times, wondering if I've done enough of that "trial and error process" leading up to actually building stuff. Maybe I need to do more? Interesting.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Design by computer or paper?
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2014, 11:51:33 AM »
Keith,

This continued promoting of 'those that "get it" design in the field' does nothing to change the biases of the majority of non-architects who read this forum.
Ally

Ally,

If anything, I think the bias on this site towards field work is the wanna be architects can see stuff in the field, but are afraid they couldn't draw!  Or, they mistakenly think their favorite architects don't use paper and pencil for some things.

Maybe if they read Tom Doak's website where he says he routes first on paper, or the story of Sebonack where he had a routing worked out on paper before seeing the site (and it was pretty darn good, too) they might be convinced, since he is one of the biggest defenders of working on site, and many people think it is the only way to do it.

No matter how they market themselves, architects aren't that far apart.  Obviously, they have some capacity to see things before they are there, and however they visualize it, paper may help.  Computers may help. 

As to field changes and the quote by FLW, I sincerely doubt he changed too many floor plans after the concrete footprint was poured, but may have moved some walls, changed the decorations, etc.  At least, I have studied Wright a bit and don't recall too many big changes that way.  And, that would be similar to moving bunkers around or changing green contour once the big picture is set.  Yes, there are a few instances of architects dramatically changing a routing after construction starts, and more of them moving holes or parts thereof many yards to best take advantage of trees, or whatever.  Sometimes you can do it, sometimes you can't (think housing projects or ESA setbacks.)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach