What five (5) golf courses would you restore and why ?

[David Stamm]

Cool thread. Mine would be:


La Cumbre (completion date by GCT & BB)- What might've been Thomas' very best.

Bel Air (completion date of GCT & BB)- While not as "mighty" as LACC or Riviera, the holes that have been lost were some of Thomas best including the Mae West. Shame on Dick Wilson!

Sharp Park- Just thinking about what MacK might've done there makes for good day dreaming.

Lakeside-(pre flood) This Behr course was very highly thought of when completed. I would've love to have seen the course to match his words.

Timber Point-The photo's in Wexler's book just look awesome. It looked like it was a beast! The Gibraltar hole alone would've been worth seeing.

[Steve Kline]

- Pinehurst No. 4 - A great, great piece of property wasted. There is a wonderful Ross course in there somewhere.
Bob

The old course was much, much better than the new version. I used to love the old second par 3. It's a shame they destroyed that course. Just some better maintenance and more fairway around the greens and the old #4 would have been great.

[Jay Flemma]

1.  Crestwood Golf Club, Marcy NY...the owners have driven it into the ground.

[Rich Goodale]

Sharp Park
The Eden (St. Andrews)
the old 9-hole Struie at Dornoch (1946-1985)
The Lido (bring it on, CBM!)
The Old Course (St. Andrews) c. 1840

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich:  50 lashes for me if this was in your book and I am just forgetting it, but why was TOC better in 1840 than it is now?  Was that when it had 22 holes?

And about Sharp Park, it is a nice dream... but that enormous berm separating the course from the sea isn't going anywhere, nor should it really.  That course floods too much WITH the berm... it boggles the mind to think what a swamp it would be without it.

TH

[Rich Goodale]

All right, Huck--I'll substitute Stanford for Sharp Park.  The former was probably miles better than the latter, at their peak, anyway.

As for TOC, c. 1840 it was effectively a 9-hole course and while the holes coming in were very much the same as they are now, the holes going out were vastly superior to the ones we know, which were created C. 1850.  I was re-reading James Balfour's "Reminiscences of Golf on St. Andrews Links" today, and the thought of playing today's 3rd with the Pinciple's Nose complex in the middle of that fairway gave me wood.

To satisfy Patrick and/or avoid multicoloured bold admonitions.....

Eden--the remaing 11-12 Colt holes are so great, the other 6-7 can't be chopped liver.

NLE Struie--what a 9-hole beginning, fun, relief course should be.

Lido--I bet it would be a great disappointment, which is why I would love non-thinking Macdonaldophiles to waste their financial, intellectual and emotional capital on the resoration.  But, if I were wrong, I would be both pleased and magnamimous......

[wsmorrison]

Boca Raton South:  A design on flat ground (10 feet of elevation change) which used width, angles, deception and wind in a naturalistic design style that shows exactly how great golf can be provided for high handicappers and a nearly complete test of golf (except for elevation change demands) can be presented to the very best players.

Eagles Mere New Course:  A design on terrain that made Augusta look flat.  A fascinating example of how to design an appealing course on extremely demanding ground.  The opposite of Boca Raton South.  Gravity golf as rarely seen.  Very few bunkers...very few needed.

Cherry Hills CC:  While it is not a top-tier Flynn, nor should it be exactly restored, it fell so far from its potential that it needs a lot of work.  Luckily it looks like it will happen sometime over the next few years.

Cobbs Creek:  Marvelous ground for golf, terrific routing and a hole designs.  The best golf course for public golfers in Philadelphia by a large margin.

Denver CC and CC of York:  Wow, what designs and routings!  If the Denver CC remodeling was only implemented in full it would surely have been the first club west of the Mighty Miss to have a US Open.  If the CC of York plans were accepted, there would be a lot more interest in that great club's course.  In both cases, I think the difficulty and innovative designs scared them off.  That and the fact that Lancaster CC was already a Flynn in the case of CCY.

[Ray Richard]

Ponkapoag #1, Canton,Ma.-Cut down all 2 million trees, kick the state of Massachusetts out of the management and bring back this fabled Ross design.

Ponkapoag #2,Canton,Ma-Same as above but turn in into a Ross style, compatable with #1 above.

George Wright-Boston, Ma-Rebuild the bunkers and redo all the tee turf and viola-a Ross masterpiece.

Franklin Park,Boston-add about 60 bunkers, shag up the bunker faces, redo all the tee boxes and you will have a great classic course

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich  - thanks for the info re TOC.  Sounds good to me.

Good call re Stanford in theory, although you have some serious logistical problems there as well given the widening of Sand Hill Road.  Have you been there in the last year or so?  If not, you wouldn't recognize it.  Can't see as that one can realistically be restored either.  But dare to dream!

TH

[Doug Wright]

Cherry Hills CC:  While it is not a top-tier Flynn, nor should it be exactly restored, it fell so far from its potential that it needs a lot of work.  Luckily it looks like it will happen sometime over the next few years.

Denver CC...  Wow, what designs and routings!  If the Denver CC remodeling was only implemented in full it would surely have been the first club west of the Mighty Miss to have a US Open.

Wayne,

I thought quite a bit of work had already been done at Cherry Hills over the past few years. No?

Re Denver CC I hadn't thought it a candidate for "restoration" (the topic of this thread) since the club never built the Flynn course and hence can't "restore" it. I agree with you, however, that the Flynn 1920s design for DCC was first-rate, and I wish the club would look at using some of his concepts on what's there now. It would be impossible to duplicate the 1920s Flynn course now for several reasons, including the incursion of a road in front of the clubhouse that eliminated two holes from the Flynn design, the club acquired additional land to replace those holes, and a practice area was needed. Nice to think about though...

[Jesse Jones]

 1. Longaberger
 2. Bay Harbor
 3. Waverly Woods
 4. Harbour Pointe-Not much of a redesign. I'd just demolish about 200 homes that line the fairways.
 5. The Links at Lighthouse Sound

All these courses are on great pieces of land.          
All could use a major re-do.

[Phil McDade]

Five restorations, Langford/Moreau edition:

-- Kankakee Elks (Illinois): A recent thread by GCA posters Dan Moore and Eric Terhorst suggests it's the most deplorably overtreed course in the Midwestern L/M canon. Cut the trees and restore the bunkering.

-- Culver Academies (Indiana): Only 9 of 27 holes built here; build another nine, restore the bunkering, and expand the greens lost over the years. See Ran's GCA profile.

-- Ozaukee CC, suburban Milwaukee: Very good early L/M marred by unnamed Chicago-area architects' (initials K and N) mounding that looks ugly and makes little sense. Some great old trees can be found on the course and should remain; the rest (anything 50 years old or newer) should be cut down. Truly, not much would need to be done here to fully restore it to close to its original intent (maybe some bunker work); just the will of the membership.

-- West Bend CC (Wisconsin): A terrific L/M nine over mostly teriffic property combined with what's described as an ordinary, 1960s-era nine over similar good terrain. The plans for 18 by L/M are there; might exceed Lawsonia as the prototypical L/M course, given what the front nine is like.

-- Spring Valley (Wisconsin): The original L/M plans are in the clubhouse, complete with bunkers. The course has none, and never had them. Add them, combined with an aggressive tree-cutting program, and you'd turn a very good L/M course into a terrific one. Some green expansion plans are already underway.

[nandoal]

I don't think you can count Lido because it's not on the same land anymore.

My five would be:

1.  Timber Point
2.  Bel Air
3.  Cobb's Creek, though I don't know how good it was
4.  Royal Cinque Ports, Deal, pre-Battle of Britain
5.  Commonwealth
6.  High Pointe!

Tom: Having spent alot of years at Bel-Air CC, and having It so near and dear to my heart.  How would you restore Bel-Air?  What major work would you do?  What irks you about the "recent" changes?

And yes I do agree that it needs to be restored!

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

Of course you are right about Flynn's plans not being significantly implemented at Denver CC and impossible to reproduce at this stage.  I was in fantasy mode and restoring/building according to Flynn's plan.  I'm not knocking the course as it stands today, but Flynn's plans are really cool!

[Patrick Kiser]

- Yes, agreed tht Shark Park is out.  Not possible.  Course should just not be restored with what's left.  Start over from scratch.

- Bel Air agreed too.

- Stanford as well.

- To continue with G.C. Thomas ... Ojai.

- ANGC the way it once was.

- Last but not least ... how about San Clemente Muni for the deprived SD crowd.


     

[D_Malley]

Philadelphia Cricket Club is crying out for some restoration work.  returning all of the cross bunkers and some tree clearing would really revitaize this course.  

[David Stamm]

- Yes, agreed tht Shark Park is out.  Not possible.  Course should just not be restored with what's left.  Start over from scratch.

- Bel Air agreed too.

- Stanford as well.

- To continue with G.C. Thomas ... Ojai.

- ANGC the way it once was.

- Last but not least ... how about San Clemente Muni for the deprived SD crowd.


     

I was thinking Ojai as well, but with permanent structures now laying where some of the course used to be, impossible. And Carter Moorish screwed up any chance of the "lost holes" being faithfully restored.


San Clemente, now that would be interesting. Billy (Sr.) Bell's holes (the front nine) have little chance to be redone. With TN's help he helped me line up the routing from the '20's with Google Earth today. The first tee was where the driving range tee is now and the second green was in the middle of where the driving range lays now. The sixth's tee used to sit in the middle of a park that now exists to the left of the present tee. The rest is more or less doable.  

[Tim Pitner]

Course:  Wellshire in Denver.

Why:  Because it's in my backyard.

[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].  

[Brett Hochstein]

if i thought about it longer, this list would probably different, but some thoughts:

Oakland Hills--not completely, but bring back the old scooped-out pits, chop trees, and get rid of the monotony created by RTJ

Augusta--self explanatory

Bethpage Black--widen those fairways

Pasatiempo--thin trees and bring back the unique "bleeding" bunkers

and as was mentioned 4 years ago, High Pointe--work the existing bunkers and eliminate the myriad thatch accumulation to get the ball bouncing and rolling again

[Tim Leahy]

Haggin Oaks(Mac) and Del Paso in Sacramento.

[Tom Huckaby]

Haggin Oaks(Mac) and Del Paso in Sacramento.

Tim - interesting choices in that both have been "restored"... or at least "renovated"....

I take it you don't like how they came out?

 

[Doug Wright]

Course:  Wellshire in Denver.

Why:  Because it's in my backyard.

[Sorry Doug, I missed your post].  

Tim, great minds think alike...

[John Kirk]

Stanford GC is my one wish in this regard.  The original photos show an aesthetically superior course.  Big Billy Bell Bunkers!

[Scott Lagana]

Ponkapoag CG in Canton, MA. After restoration could hold a USGA event, maybe the Open.

[James Bennett]

Yarra Yarra: tear down all the trees which detract from the design.  On opening, it was said to resemble a windswept British Open course; wouldn't it be great to get that feeling back?

I think Mark G provided me with this old overhead of Yarra Yarra.  It is inspirational.  The 5th hole (which is featured in Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course) can be seen just right of the clubhouse.



James B