Streamsong, I'm starting to

[John Kavanaugh]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

Perhaps one could say the same for Indiana....or even Nebraska.

Indiana doesn't have a course in the World top 100. It never should. I know you're kidding about Nebraska but it does hold one of the great geological formations in the world that sits at a near perfect elevation above sea level. I am not one to make the Ocean argument with given my much professed love of the inland courses of Colorado and Nebraska partially because I prefer playing at elevation over water views.

I am also amused that me, one who has no interest in ever playing outside this country, is making the argument of the finite possibility for this county to host top 100 courses. I quickly checked out the recent thread concerning the best courses in Ireland and found 18 courses from that country alone I would put ahead of anything in Florida. I just simply have never liked how my ball feels off the club in that State. Nothing can change that. 

[Steve Lapper]

What kind of golf course would compliment the existing two courses and act as a significant golfing lure ?
 

So, assuming a third courses is undoubtedly in the plans...why wouldn't it be a course designed to host a PGA Tour event?

Jim,

   I'll turn it around and say WHY WOULD YOU?? Enough courses and clubs have made the mistake of pandering to a 4 day shit-fest of of a PGA party than I care to remember. Real and tangible benefits are far from achieved and instead the circus moves on and most if forgotten within a month or so.

  Streamsong's infrastructure wasn't designed to accommodate this type of thing and was instead developed to attract and entertain the recreational revenue-generating golfer....remember he or her??...the ones who make up 99.5% of the game??

  It is my unqualified yet adamant opinion that more damage has been done to golf by the pro game over the last 25yrs than not. The likes of Pebble, Pinehurst, Sea Island, Whistling Straits have cemented their position of uber-luxury-priced greens fees by ways of hosting the tour. Excellent multi-course public facilities, with greater diversity and more affordable golf like Bandon, Cabot, Streamsong and soon-to-be Sand Valley will likely never. Let's hope.

[Steve Lapper]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

Perhaps one could say the same for Indiana....or even Nebraska.

Indiana doesn't have a course in the World top 100. It never should. I know you're kidding about Nebraska but it does hold one of the great geological formations in the world that sits at a near perfect elevation above sea level. I am not one to make the Ocean argument with given my much professed love of the inland courses of Colorado and Nebraska partially because I prefer playing at elevation over water views.

I am also amused that me, one who has no interest in ever playing outside this country, is making the argument of the finite possibility for this county to host top 100 courses. I quickly checked out the recent thread concerning the best courses in Ireland and found 18 courses from that country alone I would put ahead of anything in Florida. I just simply have never liked how my ball feels off the club in that State. Nothing can change that.  

John,

   Thats why PERSONAL tastes remain paramount. Having likely played all or most of the 18 courses you are referring to in Ireland, I'd have to say Streamsong compares favorably to a good number.

    Of course, neither SS Red or Blue can hold a Jaka candle to golfing in the Himalayas. I'm sure there are a few here who might be willing to sponsor a visit  

[Tom_Doak]

   Of course, neither SS Red or Blue can hold a Jaka candle to golfing in the Himalayas. I'm sure there are a few here who might be willing to sponsor a visit  

I think John would love golf in the Himalayas.  And personally I would love to see him spend a few days surrounded by Buddhists.  It was an awakening experience for me and I think it would be for most people.

[Mike Hendren]

The general consensus from raters seems to be more along the lines of what Bogey said ... great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean].  Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view and one more for the windy, bouncy conditions.

So the courses are 10's if oceanside?  "i.e. by the ocean" never crossed my mind.   One thought is that as "minimalists" you and C2 were commissioned to try a little harder at Streamsong.  As Joe Hancock has stated "there little money in doing less."  At least that's how it felt to me. 

I'll pull out the yardage books this weekend and revisit.  I will admit that Streamsong isn't my cup of tea.  8+ is a reasonable rating for someone who digs this type of chili.   

Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
You say that your group used 3 wood or Hybrid from around the green. Jeff Warne has spoken about this, as recently on the Casa De Campo thread. Do you feel that the conditions of the course had the effect of limiting your actual choice around the green?

Keith, It's not a question of "limited" choice as much as it is "preferred" choice.

With firm, fast greens, we just felt more comfortable using fairway woods to putt from 10-40 yards off of a green.

Initially, we all went long on those shots until we figured out that the ball ran pretty quick on the fairway grass.

With the fairway wood, the margin of error is far more forgiving.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What kind of golf course would compliment the existing two courses and act as a significant golfing lure ?
 

So, assuming a third courses is undoubtedly in the plans...why wouldn't it be a course designed to host a PGA Tour event?

If you had ever been to Streamsong, you'd know the answer.

You can't find it at night.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

How many times have you played Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Stuart,

The fog was so thick that I didn't know that you were a lefty.

Terrific poem and photos.

It was great to meet you.

The fog finally lifted on # 8.

Sorry you couldn't get in 36 as you would have enjoyed the first 7 holes with nothing but blue skies and sunshine.

One of my favorite par 3's is # 5.
I wish you could have seen it.......... clearly, it's a most interesting and challenging short par 3.

Short par 3's have become a lost art.

And # 5 should be exhibit "A" for how to create one.

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

How many times have you played Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio ?

None. The exact same number of rounds I have played in Australia, Scotland, Ireland or Japan. Based on that lack of observation saying that Florida is lucky to have one top 100 course in the world seems perfectly logical.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

How many times have you played Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio ?

None. The exact same number of rounds I have played in Australia, Scotland, Ireland or Japan. Based on that lack of observation saying that Florida is lucky to have one top 100 course in the world seems perfectly logical.


JakaB,

Then how could you make this statement with any degree of credibility ?

I quickly checked out the recent thread concerning the best courses in Ireland and found 18 courses from that country alone I would put ahead of anything in Florida

[Bill Brightly]

I happen to love the turf at SS. I think it is a perfect middle between the typical conditions on most northeast parkland courses in the Northeast US and the true links courses in the UK and Ireland. And since a very significant portion of Streamsong's market will be snowbirds, I think the turf has just enough roll to make them think they are playing true links, but not TOO firm so that they become frustrated.

Even if we assume that the site for the third course is not as dramatic as the first two, I would trust C & C or TD to build a cool (third) place to play golf. Frankly, I really enjoy what they do on flat land. But I think the third course must be designed to handle cart traffic in the winter, because having to walk 36 holes is certainly an issue for their target market. And there is NOTHING else to do there but golf.
 

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

How many times have you played Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio ?

None. The exact same number of rounds I have played in Australia, Scotland, Ireland or Japan. Based on that lack of observation saying that Florida is lucky to have one top 100 course in the world seems perfectly logical.


JakaB,

Then how could you make this statement with any degree of credibility ?

I quickly checked out the recent thread concerning the best courses in Ireland and found 18 courses from that country alone I would put ahead of anything in Florida

I regret that statement.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

How many times have you played Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio ?

None. The exact same number of rounds I have played in Australia, Scotland, Ireland or Japan. Based on that lack of observation saying that Florida is lucky to have one top 100 course in the world seems perfectly logical.


JakaB,

Then how could you make this statement with any degree of credibility ?

I quickly checked out the recent thread concerning the best courses in Ireland and found 18 courses from that country alone I would put ahead of anything in Florida

I regret that statement.

JakaB,

You da man ! 

[Stewart Abramson]

Stuart,

The fog was so thick that I didn't know that you were a lefty.

Larry, whose daughters went to ND, is the Lefty. I'm the righty with the camera

Terrific poem and photos.
It was great to meet you.
Great to meet you too

The fog finally lifted on # 8.
It was amazing, how after wandering in the dark for almost two hours the fog went from heavy to none at all in the matter of 2 or 3 minutes. When we arrived at the, par 3  7th tee  we could barely see the silhouette of your group on the green.  On the bridge to the green the fog was gone.

Sorry you couldn't get in 36 as you would have enjoyed the first 7 holes with nothing but blue skies and sunshine.
At least I got in 11 holes under sunny blue skies. I'll be back.  Check out the difference from the 6th and 8th



Streamsong Blue #6 from front tee zoomed



Streamsong Blue #7  P1060332 (2)



Streamsong Blue #8 from tee - where'd the fog go?

One of my favorite par 3's is # 5.
I wish you could have seen it.......... clearly, it's a most interesting and challenging short par 3.

From 120 yards we could not see you at all on the green.  


Streamsong Blue #5 par 3 from 120 yards can't see the green throgh fog

We did see the green once we got on. The crew working in the large bunker behind the green told me that my ball landed middle of the green, rolled forward , missed the back-center hole by a foot and then rolled down the steep slope to the right. I was pin high with a long uphill putt... and three putted. In my experience, TD's greens aren't typically made to be conquered or even understood in one play. I wish we'd have had the time for a replay or even to roll a few extra putts, but there was another two-ball behind us. I see that there are several Streamsong threads going now and that Martin B is posting photos, so rather than post a lot of  the "normal" sunny photos of holes 8-18 here, here's a link for anyone who's like to see them: https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/16059308292/in/set-72157649821256871/lightbox/  or https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/sets/72157649821256871/

edited to fix links

[Tom_Doak]

The general consensus from raters seems to be more along the lines of what Bogey said ... great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean].  Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view and one more for the windy, bouncy conditions.

So the courses are 10's if oceanside?  "i.e. by the ocean" never crossed my mind.   One thought is that as "minimalists" you and C2 were commissioned to try a little harder at Streamsong.  As Joe Hancock has stated "there little money in doing less."  At least that's how it felt to me. 

I didn't mean to say Streamsong was a 10 without the water ... you seemed to preclude the possibility of any course being higher than a 7 without being "in nature" and I took that to mean "by the ocean".  My bad.

As to your thought, I don't believe that Bill or Ben or I took our commission as a reason to "try a little harder".  However, the courses WERE built in the doldrums of the economy and we had an excess of talented guys taking turns working on the project, so you may be right that the courses were shaped more than necessary.  Which is a shame, if that's how it comes off, because that wasn't really necessary.  From the first time I saw it through today, I still think it's one of the half-dozen coolest sites we've worked on.

[Sean_A]

Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view...

That strikes me as an awful lot extra considering the beauty which can exist away from an ocean.  I would tend to lean toward if in doubt give the course a bump up because of the view.  If very exceptional, maybe a 1 point extra assuming the beauty is marred by outside noise/disturbance. 

Ciao 

[Rob Marshall]

Stuart,

The fog was so thick that I didn't know that you were a lefty.

Terrific poem and photos.

It was great to meet you.

The fog finally lifted on # 8.

Sorry you couldn't get in 36 as you would have enjoyed the first 7 holes with nothing but blue skies and sunshine.

One of my favorite par 3's is # 5.
I wish you could have seen it.......... clearly, it's a most interesting and challenging short par 3.

Short par 3's have become a lost art.

And # 5 should be exhibit "A" for how to create one.

I assume you are talking about the 5th on the Blue. I didn't think it was a great par three when I hit a sandwedge on the green 10 ft from a front pin and it ended up 30ft down in a bunker with footprints 6 inches deep. I probably would have liked it better had I known that being left of the pin was a huge mistake. They need to put a warning sign that if hit your ball down there you may never be able to climb back out assuming you were able to make it down.   

[JESII]

Steve,

Post 26 is a good one and I think I agree with all of it...however, I don't think it has to be that way.

I think an owner can manage their relationship with the professional events/organizers much better than they have. I think that should be the goal (not of Streamsong, but of the courses/clubs that do host events).

Case in point, we're witnessing Merion unwind much of what the course looked like prior to the recent run of USGA events...did the changes made in advance of those events really have a meaningful impact on the quality of each event? Very happy to see this process happening and hoping its a lesson for others.

My answer wasn't to a hypothetical..."what's the best business plan for Streamsong?". It was an answer to Pat's question...'what kind of golf course would act as a significant golfing lure?'

Streamsong is on the radar of a certain demographic because two of the top design firms working today built very highly regarded courses. How many different kinds of courses are there that would expand that demographic? The guys in my neighborhood might think about going there if they saw it on TV in March...

Out of curiosity, is there any way to guess at the "lure" Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald have delivered? I'm not asking if people like/prefer them, or what the breakdown in rounds are. I'm asking if more people put Bandon on their destination list once they added a third and fourth course.

[Brent Hutto]

Out of curiosity, is there any way to guess at the "lure" Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald have delivered? I'm not asking if people like/prefer them, or what the breakdown in rounds are. I'm asking if more people put Bandon on their destination list once they added a third and fourth course.

Anecdotally, just based on people I know who have been there or want to go there, I'm inclined to say no. It sure seemed to me that Bandon with 2 courses was 99% as attractive to 99% as many golfers as Bandon with many courses.

Even if that were true however, the extra courses make it possible to handle a lot more rounds of golf at peak times and I wouldn't doubt it adds to the allure of return visits. I certainly have heard people make comments about having enjoyed their trip and their only regret was only having played one round at [fill in the blank] course there.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat I know you like Streamsong but are all the greens gathering and the holes buckets??

87 holes in one in two years on the two courses, 6 aces on the wager hole and 3 albatrosses……….

[Will MacEwen]

Out of curiosity, is there any way to guess at the "lure" Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald have delivered? I'm not asking if people like/prefer them, or what the breakdown in rounds are. I'm asking if more people put Bandon on their destination list once they added a third and fourth course.

Anecdotally, just based on people I know who have been there or want to go there, I'm inclined to say no. It sure seemed to me that Bandon with 2 courses was 99% as attractive to 99% as many golfers as Bandon with many courses.

Even if that were true however, the extra courses make it possible to handle a lot more rounds of golf at peak times and I wouldn't doubt it adds to the allure of return visits. I certainly have heard people make comments about having enjoyed their trip and their only regret was only having played one round at [fill in the blank] course there.

I think the the additional courses have made regular return visits more appealing.  For initial and second visits they are likely of next to no effect.

I went to Bandon a few times when it was two courses. Since Trails I have been about 12 more times. The depth and variety of the courses make a 4 day 8 round trip ideal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

Post 26 is a good one and I think I agree with all of it...however, I don't think it has to be that way.

I think an owner can manage their relationship with the professional events/organizers much better than they have. I think that should be the goal (not of Streamsong, but of the courses/clubs that do host events).

Case in point, we're witnessing Merion unwind much of what the course looked like prior to the recent run of USGA events...did the changes made in advance of those events really have a meaningful impact on the quality of each event? Very happy to see this process happening and hoping its a lesson for others.

My answer wasn't to a hypothetical..."what's the best business plan for Streamsong?". It was an answer to Pat's question...'what kind of golf course would act as a significant golfing lure?'

Streamsong is on the radar of a certain demographic because two of the top design firms working today built very highly regarded courses. How many different kinds of courses are there that would expand that demographic? The guys in my neighborhood might think about going there if they saw it on TV in March...

Out of curiosity, is there any way to guess at the "lure" Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald have delivered? I'm not asking if people like/prefer them, or what the breakdown in rounds are. I'm asking if more people put Bandon on their destination list once they added a third and fourth course.

Jim,

I wouldn't have returned to Bandon this year if Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald hadn't been added since I last played there.

As to Streamsong, your unfamiliarity with the course and the surrounding area makes you like the three blind men trying to understand what an elephant is.
One is holding the trunk, another the ear and the third, the tusk.
Individually and collectively, they have no idea as to what's in their presence.
Ditto Streamsong and you.

Take a two/three day trip to Streamsong.
You won't regret it, it's a treat and the onsite accomodations are terrific.

[Bart Bradley]

The general consensus from raters seems to be more along the lines of what Bogey said ... great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean].  Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view and one more for the windy, bouncy conditions.

So the courses are 10's if oceanside?  "i.e. by the ocean" never crossed my mind.   One thought is that as "minimalists" you and C2 were commissioned to try a little harder at Streamsong.  As Joe Hancock has stated "there little money in doing less."  At least that's how it felt to me. 

I didn't mean to say Streamsong was a 10 without the water ... you seemed to preclude the possibility of any course being higher than a 7 without being "in nature" and I took that to mean "by the ocean".  My bad.

As to your thought, I don't believe that Bill or Ben or I took our commission as a reason to "try a little harder".  However, the courses WERE built in the doldrums of the economy and we had an excess of talented guys taking turns working on the project, so you may be right that the courses were shaped more than necessary.  Which is a shame, if that's how it comes off, because that wasn't really necessary.  From the first time I saw it through today, I still think it's one of the half-dozen coolest sites we've worked on.

Tom, one of the half dozen coolest sites?

Which site didn't you find as cool as Streamsong?

1. Barnbougle
2. Pac Dunes
3. Cape Kidnappers
4. Ballyneal
5. Rock Creek
6. Tara iti
7. Renaissance.
8.  Dismal

I am probably neglecting some other cool places you have been able to work.  For me, Streamsong, as a site, isn't remotely as cool as any of the 8 above.

Just my opinion,

Bart

[William_G]

The general consensus from raters seems to be more along the lines of what Bogey said ... great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean].  Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view and one more for the windy, bouncy conditions.

So the courses are 10's if oceanside?  "i.e. by the ocean" never crossed my mind.   One thought is that as "minimalists" you and C2 were commissioned to try a little harder at Streamsong.  As Joe Hancock has stated "there little money in doing less."  At least that's how it felt to me. 

I didn't mean to say Streamsong was a 10 without the water ... you seemed to preclude the possibility of any course being higher than a 7 without being "in nature" and I took that to mean "by the ocean".  My bad.

As to your thought, I don't believe that Bill or Ben or I took our commission as a reason to "try a little harder".  However, the courses WERE built in the doldrums of the economy and we had an excess of talented guys taking turns working on the project, so you may be right that the courses were shaped more than necessary.  Which is a shame, if that's how it comes off, because that wasn't really necessary.  From the first time I saw it through today, I still think it's one of the half-dozen coolest sites we've worked on.

Tom, one of the half dozen coolest sites?

Which site didn't you find as cool as Streamsong?

1. Barnbougle
2. Pac Dunes
3. Cape Kidnappers
4. Ballyneal
5. Rock Creek
6. Tara iti
7. Renaissance.
8.  Dismal

I am probably neglecting some other cool places you have been able to work.  For me, Streamsong, as a site, isn't remotely as cool as any of the 8 above.

Just my opinion,

Bart

good call Bart +1